IRC log of musicbrainz on 2007-04-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

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00:22:58 [BrianFreud]
Hmmm... "Seasons in the Sun" - written by the Fortunes, but made famous by Terry Jacks, and that's who was intended to be covered - who would you set the cover target to? Terry Jacks, or (original) The Fortunes?
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00:25:49 [BrianFreud]
Hi Jugdish
00:26:26 [Jugdish__]
sup
00:26:39 [BrianFreud]
researching an interestng song
00:29:15 [BrianFreud]
Seasons in the Sun: Nirvana covered Terry Jacks' version; Jacks covered The Fortunes' version; The Fortunes, Bob Shane (of the Kingston Trio), and the Beach Boys each were covering an English translation of the original song done by Rod McKuen, originally written by Jacques Brel in French as "Le Moribund" (The Dying Man)
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01:01:43 [chillware]
hmm, why do some folders end up with an underscore in odd places after saving?
01:04:48 [BrianFreud]
it's replacing non-windows chars with _
01:04:56 [BrianFreud]
so if it ends in ., it changes it to _
01:05:10 [BrianFreud]
I notice it changes .'s in the middle sometimes though for whatever reason
01:06:55 [chillware]
yea, its strange
01:17:41 [BrianFreud]
it prevents accidentally writing invalid names in windows
01:20:31 [BrianFreud]
lol - I have totally run out of open edits to vote on :P
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* ruaok hugs BrianFreud
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02:30:47 [BrianFreud]
lol
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02:40:44 [BrianFreud]
ruoak: You ever heard of Pyroto?
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03:21:55 [BrianFreud]
ruoak: Any chance you could make a easy addition for me? Add "Wax Cylinder" to the release types drop down? :P
03:22:25 [BrianFreud]
jk (mostly...) :P
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03:52:22 [henriqueqc_]
If someone can help me whith some info on how can I implement this "diff" feature without overloading the servers asking for the whole XML files everytime I "update" my local info.
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04:03:59 [BrianFreud]
henriqueqc_: the way QT does it, there's a 1 sec delay between each release request
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04:07:00 [henriqueqc_]
BrianFreud: Ok, thanks.
04:07:48 [BrianFreud]
np
04:11:36 [henriqueqc_]
Only one more question, is there any way to ask the server to include all the infomation for a given MBID whithout making a explicit request?
04:11:48 [henriqueqc_]
For example: http://musicbrainz.org/ws/1/artist/4bd95eea-b9f6-4d70-a36c-cfea77431553?type=xml&inc=aliases
04:12:28 [henriqueqc_]
Insted of "inc=aliasses" something like "inc=all".
04:14:10 [henriqueqc_]
Reading this entry: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/XMLWebService it seems that the only way is putting "inc=aliasess+...+...+" and specify all the parameter.
04:15:31 [BrianFreud]
you just went past my realm of knowledge :P
04:15:46 [BrianFreud]
ruoak, luks, or aCiD2 would be better able to answer you on that
04:16:30 [henriqueqc_]
Ok, thanks anyway!
04:17:24 [BrianFreud]
np
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04:46:04 [SenRepus]
howdie
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04:58:42 [BrianFreud]
howdie SenRepus
05:01:35 [SenRepus]
i love when you go to make an AR and (i often just press add new artist for little guys who do engineering and stuff)
05:01:40 [SenRepus]
you find that person is already in the DB
05:01:51 [SenRepus]
and you worry "is this the same guy"?
05:01:52 [BrianFreud]
:)
05:02:01 [SenRepus]
but you get to them and they have the exact same AR for another album
05:02:12 [BrianFreud]
though, I've begun to wonder if, with some of the new ARs, if "artist" is quite the right name for the field
05:02:25 [SenRepus]
often not
05:02:35 [SenRepus]
but its not what we call the person, its that we have the data saved
05:02:41 [BrianFreud]
Person/Group is not as clean, but much more accurate
05:02:43 [BrianFreud]
aye
05:03:10 [BrianFreud]
Found a fun one today
05:03:19 [BrianFreud]
you know the song "Seasons in the Sun"?
05:03:25 [SenRepus]
yes
05:03:43 [BrianFreud]
did you realize it's an English cover of a Belgian/French song?
05:03:57 [SenRepus]
nope
05:04:10 [BrianFreud]
Think about how "happy" SitS is... then I notice the original's title, when translated is "The Dead Man"
05:04:11 [BrianFreud]
lol
05:04:50 [SenRepus]
weird
05:04:54 [BrianFreud]
yup
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05:05:57 [SenRepus]
but it is entirely past tense so i guess i can see it
05:06:15 [SenRepus]
a happy rememberance of someone lost
05:06:59 [SenRepus]
http://musicbrainz.org/show/artist/?artistid=435333
05:07:01 [BrianFreud]
well, it seems Terry got permission to add some lyrics to the translation whatever poet did,
05:07:07 [SenRepus]
their last name is Katvan
05:07:13 [BrianFreud]
and changed the end so the guy doesn't end up hanging himself
05:07:34 [SenRepus]
lol
05:07:50 [BrianFreud]
just some of the wierdness you find when you delve deep into a particular track :)
05:08:04 [BrianFreud]
hmmm... that one "artist" seems appropriate
05:08:05 [BrianFreud]
:P
05:09:02 [SenRepus]
what do you mean?
05:10:09 [BrianFreud]
photograpoher?
05:10:18 [BrianFreud]
photographer, I mean?
05:10:26 [SenRepus]
oh, i see
05:13:52 [Freso]
BrianFreud: Please, use the change log for annotations.
05:19:10 [Freso]
http://musicbrainz.org/show/edit/?editid=6779508 - Isn't this the third or fourth submission by now?
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05:20:43 [BrianFreud]
?
05:20:47 [BrianFreud]
taking a look...
05:21:25 [BrianFreud]
Fresno: not sure what you mean - I have nothing to do with that edit
05:22:35 [BrianFreud]
oh, I see
05:22:45 [BrianFreud]
what do you mean by "Origin." ?
05:23:16 [BrianFreud]
Just was adding in the info re: lack of more specific composer info
05:27:16 [catgruff]
acid: tectonic as album artist, two tracks by hidden lab track artist hidden lab, 1 track by materia track artist materia
05:27:21 [catgruff]
oi damn
05:27:24 [catgruff]
he's gone
05:27:42 [catgruff]
lotsa talking at night
05:27:49 [catgruff]
do you ever sleep? :P
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05:28:40 [SenRepus]
who?
05:28:46 [cooperaa]
me?
05:28:55 [catgroove]
nope
05:28:56 [catgroove]
:)
05:28:59 [cooperaa]
then who?
05:29:07 [catgroove]
sshhh
05:29:23 [cooperaa]
catgroove: you were supposed to say "yes you" and then I would say "couldn't be"
05:29:31 [catgroove]
oh
05:29:32 [cooperaa]
and then you would say "then who?"
05:29:33 [catgroove]
sorry
05:29:43 [BrianFreud]
catgruff - I was around when he was trying to figure that one out
05:29:48 [catgroove]
it's 7:30 and I'm not awake yet
05:29:48 [cooperaa]
(I'm not crazy, it's a kid's song)
05:29:58 [catgroove]
I need to be out the door at 9
05:30:06 [BrianFreud]
the 2 "artists" on that album are actually aliases used by Tectonic
05:30:10 [catgroove]
yes
05:30:16 [catgroove]
so the album artist should be
05:30:20 [cooperaa]
* cooperaa gets nervous as his music harddrive randomly dismounted and will not remount :S
05:30:24 [catgroove]
but trhe track artists should be what they are
05:30:35 [catgroove]
cooperaa: uff!
05:30:46 [cooperaa]
oh noes
05:30:53 [BrianFreud]
the way we thought to do it was set it as Tectonic as artist, with performed by AR to the alias
05:30:57 [BrianFreud]
that wrong?
05:30:59 [catgroove]
NO
05:31:05 [catgroove]
of course it is
05:31:09 [catgroove]
read the documentation
05:31:26 [BrianFreud]
you say of course it is like it's obvious
05:31:34 [BrianFreud]
but there were 3-4 ppl who were in here and not sure
05:31:35 [BrianFreud]
lol
05:32:36 [catgroove]
I think the dismal state ofthings like that ia not funy
05:33:00 [catgroove]
those people where also mostly newbies OR talking about other things entirely
05:33:08 [Freso]
BrianFreud: There *is* specific composer info (as specific as the system allows to, see proposal of splitting up [trad.] on -users earlier in month).
05:33:11 [BrianFreud]
I'm laughing at the perspective of it being obvious, not the state of things
05:33:45 [Freso]
BrianFreud: "Origin." refers to the fact that your annotation touches upon where the song/tune originates from.
05:33:52 [catgroove]
I can't waste my time right now, I've gotta get amove on and not get aggravated before school
05:33:57 [BrianFreud]
no problem
05:34:09 [catgroove]
Freso: thanks
05:34:14 [BrianFreud]
* BrianFreud isn't sure why he seems to always piss catgrrove off
05:34:14 [catgroove]
bye all
05:34:17 [BrianFreud]
see ya
05:34:24 [cooperaa]
later
05:34:25 [Freso]
catgroove: You're welcome... for something... ?
05:34:27 [Freso]
o.O
05:34:36 [cooperaa]
weeee!
05:34:43 [cooperaa]
* cooperaa 's music drive is back online!
05:34:47 [BrianFreud]
hey cooperaa :)
05:34:55 [BrianFreud]
thanks for the backup on that beatles boot :)
05:34:56 [cooperaa]
hey (it's Brian, right?)
05:34:59 [BrianFreud]
yes
05:35:09 [cooperaa]
cool, I'm Aaron - feel free to call me whatever's easiest
05:35:27 [BrianFreud]
Brian, BrianFreud, Brain, whatever works for you :)
05:35:32 [cooperaa]
heh
05:35:52 [BrianFreud]
maybe this is obvious, but I can;t find it
05:36:08 [BrianFreud]
is there a way to do an advanced edit search for only releases of X given type?
05:36:16 [BrianFreud]
I can filter down to open add release edits,
05:36:18 [Freso]
* Freso feels it's easiest to type one or two letters and TAB!
05:36:25 [BrianFreud]
but I want to filter to open add bootleg release edits
05:36:34 [BrianFreud]
* BrianFreud agrees with Fresno
05:36:46 [Freso]
...
05:36:52 [Freso]
No tabbing there, I see.
05:36:55 [cooperaa]
Freso: me too :)
05:37:06 [BrianFreud]
:P
05:37:13 [BrianFreud]
anyhow, is there a way to do it?
05:37:24 [cooperaa]
not that I'm aware of
05:37:49 [BrianFreud]
as you noticed cooperaa, I'm going through and fixing all the freedb boot add titles I can find
05:37:58 [BrianFreud]
just a mess for any I've found
05:42:43 [BrianFreud]
By the way, to catgroove and any others... My apologies if I'm making stupid mistakes trying to interpret the various wiki pages and figure out the right way to do things. Yes, some may seem dumb or obviously wrong sometimes, but I've read countless wiki pages, and I am trying - and hopefully learning. :) I really don't mean to piss anyone off - just trying to do it right, and at the same time fix the errors I find. So please
05:44:19 [Freso]
BrianFreud: I don't think anyone's annoyed by your edits.
05:44:29 [BrianFreud]
catgroove seems to take most of them rather badly
05:44:40 [Freso]
BrianFreud: The edits?
05:44:46 [BrianFreud]
yes
05:44:50 [Freso]
Hm.
05:44:53 [Freso]
* Freso shrugs
05:44:59 [BrianFreud]
I know aCiD2 and I both are trying to get the hang of it
05:45:19 [BrianFreud]
he just seems to lose patience with either of us when it comes to the more difficult calls
05:45:42 [BrianFreud]
for the moment, I'm just trying to stay out of his way and learn from his comments :)
05:45:55 [Freso]
Learning from comments is good.
05:49:05 [cooperaa]
* cooperaa heads to bed - night guys
05:49:09 [BrianFreud]
see ya cooperaa
05:52:13 [Freso]
Okay. I have to get ready to go to school and to Esbjerg.
05:52:17 [Freso]
Take care all!
05:52:20 [BrianFreud]
have fun
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07:56:48 [juhae]
graah
07:58:25 [mudcrow]
hi juhae
07:59:25 [mudcrow]
whats up mate?
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08:06:27 [mudcrow]
ffs. amazon.co.uk is total pants! They have so many incorrect tracklistings for anageam & cherry red releases
08:08:43 [mudcrow]
* mudcrow wonders what juhae is graahing about
08:08:54 [juhae]
mudcrow: wrecking my brain over polish record labels :)
08:09:19 [juhae]
trying to bring the armia discography at mb into some order
08:09:33 [juhae]
but it gets really messy when there are 3-4 different releases of the same album, hehe
08:09:35 [mudcrow]
I noticed you were cleaning that up
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08:12:52 [mudcrow]
I've been adding cat numbers/release events by label. I find it much easier.
08:15:45 [juhae]
One thing that prolly sooner or later causes some degree of inconsistency is the proper formatting of cat numbers
08:16:17 [juhae]
The use of "-" as a separator etc.
08:18:16 [Jugdish]
i wish more people would realize the benefit of adding barcodes :(
08:18:59 [mudcrow]
why? 90% of my records don't have barcodes. so i see no benefit
08:19:03 [juhae]
Same here
08:20:15 [Jugdish]
because it's the best way of uniquely identifying something
08:21:15 [mudcrow]
only if it has a barcode
08:22:38 [Jugdish]
are these 7-inches you're talking about or 12-inches?
08:22:52 [juhae]
CD's as well.
08:23:11 [Jugdish]
give me an example of one that you know the cat # for but not the barcode
08:23:54 [juhae]
http://musicbrainz.org/release/8b7540e2-5dbd-450f-8f60-3000b1448c51.html
08:24:22 [mudcrow]
abrasive wheels - The army song ep. abrasive records
08:24:39 [juhae]
I have the original CD, no barcode anywhere.
08:26:01 [Jugdish]
i've had CDs that had no barcode printed anywhere on it, but there was still a barcode for the CD, i just had to google to get it
08:28:02 [BrianFreud]
Jugdish- I would add them if I still had them... still looking for a good non-Amazon UPC databse site
08:28:54 [Jugdish]
many online stores carry upc/ean info, i usually just google the name of the album + "upc OR ean" and will quickly get a consistent barcode from several sites
08:28:56 [BrianFreud]
and mudcrow: if you have a upc, google has built-in upc search ability, makes finding extra info really easy
08:29:13 [BrianFreud]
hhmm, good idea, hadn't thought of that
08:29:17 [Jugdish]
of course, i don't usually work with super-rare polish albums, so it's a bit different :P
08:29:36 [BrianFreud]
too bad most bootlegs have fake upcs :P
08:29:41 [Jugdish]
heh
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08:48:01 [BrianFreud]
I so love this new file structure, now that Luks helped me get it right...
08:48:20 [BrianFreud]
rerunning 100k files through, and it makes errors in the db, plus dup's, so easy to spot :)
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10:04:37 [Muz]
Moosegruff
10:05:10 [FauxFaux]
Gruffmuz.
10:06:45 [Muz]
Fauxgruff
10:06:55 [FauxFaux]
Indeed. :(
10:07:01 [Muz]
Wumpygruff
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11:38:00 [catgruff]
BrianFreud: hi, sorry for loosing my cool, thanks for trying, I really apreciate it. and you're wrong, it's not your edits (on the website) that irritates me. I haven't yet come over a mod by you that i disagree with (not that I've actually seen any mod by you at all though ;) I'm just having a hecktic week and I don't have the patience to backscroll through 1000 lines of tqalkign about ripping tecniques bootlegs and nirvana mods (in
11:38:00 [catgruff]
short, is more me thna you) and I really apreciate that you take my rude way of teaching you in good fate. :)
11:38:06 [catgruff]
also lol guys
11:38:08 [catgruff]
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11:52:48 [warp]
good afternoon catgroove!
12:02:16 [hardworkingmoose]
!seen luks
12:02:16 [BrainzBot]
I saw luks 12 hours 38 minutes and 7 seconds ago, quitting the server with message: Remote closed the connection
12:09:37 [catgroove]
hi warp!
12:09:45 [catgroove]
salut le panda
12:10:00 [hardworkingmoose]
lo catgroove
12:10:11 [hardworkingmoose]
catgroove: change was wrong on ReleaseTypeRestructuringProposal?
12:10:27 [hardworkingmoose]
hardworkingmoose is now known as dmppanda
12:11:33 [dmppanda]
brb
12:22:49 [Jugdish]
what's the proper way to title 2 adjacent tracks that are each parts of one song?
12:25:57 [dmppanda]
how is it on the sleeve? Is part number style applicable?
12:28:00 [Jugdish]
it's a live bootleg
12:28:49 [Jugdish]
one of the songs is split into 2 tracks even though it's the same song
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12:33:51 [dmppanda]
Jugdish: then I dunno for sure. I don't remember reading something *explicitely* about such a case, neither I met such a case... I would ask the question on IRC I guess :D - and I would probably end up using part numbering style
12:34:42 [Jugdish]
part numbering style meaning "SongTitle, Part 1" and "SongTitle, Part 2" ?
12:35:19 [dmppanda]
meaning: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/PartNumberStyle ;)
12:35:38 [Jugdish]
k
12:35:42 [AMurderofCrows]
I'd just add (continued) to the 2nd track,
12:36:44 [dmppanda]
AMurderofCrows: then how would one know the first track is not a complete version of the song?
12:37:13 [AMurderofCrows]
you don't, but its better than adding fake part numbers
12:37:26 [dmppanda]
hé
12:38:16 [dmppanda]
extraneous (incomplete) information is better than fake part numbers, then - well well :P
12:42:43 [warp]
* warp sides with AMurderofCrows
12:43:36 [AMurderofCrows]
panda mate: http://www.cherryred.co.uk/crzone/licensing/index.htm look at all those releases you can license from Cherry Red. Cherry Red are neither the artist or the label that released the originals, but they do own the licenses. the artist or original label has no say in who licenses those tracks. doesnt make it unofficial
12:44:05 [dmppanda]
mudcrow: I'm not fighting on that actually...
12:44:18 [AMurderofCrows]
i'm not fighting
12:44:22 [dmppanda]
:)
12:44:25 [AMurderofCrows]
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12:44:56 [dmppanda]
right now we have a release status named "bootleg", which reads "An unofficial/underground release that was not sanctioned by the artist and/or the record company."
12:45:23 [dmppanda]
apparently, the use of such a name is inappropriate - causing confusion among people etc
12:46:08 [dmppanda]
my suggestion is simply to change that name to something more appropriate, more close to our definition
12:46:20 [mudcrow]
the description is whats wrong. A release not being sanctioned by the artist/label is not a bootleg. An unlicensed released is a bootleg.
12:46:43 [dmppanda]
changing the description means going through all *bootleg* status releases in the db and verify them
12:46:49 [dmppanda]
this is not a solution IMO
12:47:03 [dmppanda]
I suggest rather changing the word and leave that description, which I think is fine
12:47:32 [dmppanda]
And a bootleg can be *official* (see wikipedia) I think
12:47:42 [dmppanda]
so, the word is the problem I think...
12:48:09 [mudcrow]
adding legally licensed releases are unofficial and/or bootleg is totally wrong though. The artist not sanctioning a release does not make it unofficial or a bootleg
12:48:10 [dmppanda]
* dmppanda thinks thinks thinks :)
12:48:19 [mudcrow]
are = as
12:48:27 [dmppanda]
I got your point
12:48:32 [dmppanda]
now
12:48:43 [dmppanda]
is this solvable at all?
12:48:55 [dmppanda]
there are some jazz labels in Italy/Spain
12:49:05 [dmppanda]
that exploit legal holes to release pirate material
12:49:12 [dmppanda]
they are *not* illegal
12:49:30 [catgruff]
hi panda
12:49:34 [catgruff]
left am essage at your pm
12:49:35 [dmppanda]
"bootleg"? "unofficial"? "unlicenced"?
12:49:43 [catgruff]
damn the thing wont let me stay as groove
12:49:44 [mudcrow]
same with some Russian labels, but the can't be classed as bootlegs, as its just legal loopholes they use to released Beatles albums etc
12:51:17 [mudcrow]
its licensing panda, any legal release will state who the tracks are licensed from, no licensing info = bootleg release
12:51:34 [dmppanda]
so if they release (unreleased) tapes, without the artist or right owner consent, in legality with their own country rights, they are still not bootlegers?
12:52:07 [SenRepus]
hi
12:52:13 [SenRepus]
mo
12:52:41 [dmppanda]
headache
12:53:49 [SenRepus]
mo has?
12:53:54 [dmppanda]
mudcrow: do we agree that something is wrong in that release status (name and/or definition)?
12:54:07 [mudcrow]
yes, panda.
12:54:14 [dmppanda]
that's something :)
12:54:58 [dmppanda]
do we agree as well that "bootleg" (the word) is not usable here, as it is not incompatible with "official" (hence creating a "zone" where things could be both at the same time)?
12:55:06 [mudcrow]
we need a simple description/status that everyone can easily understand without going into legal status, copyright laws. license agreements, etc
12:55:31 [catgruff]
hi sen
12:55:33 [catgruff]
:O
12:55:33 [dmppanda]
if feasible, sure...
12:55:35 [catgruff]
you uguys
12:55:46 [catgruff]
I was just t00bign with http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/ReleaseTypeRestructuringProposal
12:55:53 [catgruff]
and I was removing my 'comercial' type
12:55:56 [catgruff]
but hey
12:55:57 [mudcrow]
hi mo
12:56:06 [catgruff]
isn't this EXACTLY what you uguys aretalking about?
12:56:23 [catgruff]
it's the thing where the licence is i norder, but the artist may not in fact say ok
12:56:32 [catgruff]
like those legal things in italy
12:56:59 [dmppanda]
Starting point of the discussion is how inadequate is actually the "bootleg" status. But this is interesting as well - if it doesn't complicate things further :p
12:58:02 [catgruff]
come help me on that page
12:58:10 [catgruff]
I need to update it with some changes
12:58:33 [catgruff]
but after i'm done can we sit down and discuss what other release staus is needed?
12:58:44 [dmppanda]
catgruff: sure
12:58:48 [catgruff]
I agree that bootleg is overloaded
12:59:00 [dmppanda]
and inappropriate wording actually...
12:59:18 [catgruff]
what is a better name than 'commercial' ?
12:59:32 [dmppanda]
but as mudcrow said, we probably don't want to loose people into undue complexity...
12:59:39 [catgruff]
no
12:59:42 [catgruff]
but its like this
13:00:40 [mudcrow]
brb
13:00:49 [dmppanda]
ok, catgruff give us a ping when you're done with update.
13:00:54 [catgruff]
bootleg = not sanctiooned by recordcompany (ownre of the licence/copyright (but may or may not be sanctioned by the artist (some artists are cool i nthat way))) commercil = not sanctioned by the artist (but the licence may be i norder / not illigal in italy/etc)
13:01:08 [catgruff]
ok I will
13:15:54 [SenRepus]
night mo
13:15:57 [catgruff]
men
13:16:01 [catgruff]
natta sen?
13:16:05 [catgruff]
^__^
13:16:06 [catgruff]
luff
13:16:09 [catgruff]
sov godt
13:16:13 [catgruff]
sweet dreams
13:16:33 [SenRepus]
^_^ thank you
13:16:37 [SenRepus]
have a good day
13:16:41 [SenRepus]
evening
13:16:44 [catgruff]
\o/
13:16:59 [SenRepus]
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13:20:31 [dmppanda]
dmppanda is now known as workingmoose
13:40:43 [workingmoose]
mudcrow: more thinking about it - I like your idea to go back to the idea of splitting things by "licensed or not". Perhaps: Officially Licensed / Promotional / Not Officially Licensed. Plus, licensing info *is* avalaible from sleeves, and doesn't require having a lawyer Phd to figure things out.
13:42:24 [catgruff]
ok I've done my first update
13:42:30 [catgruff]
(countless more to follow (lol))
13:42:36 [catgruff]
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/ReleaseTypeRestructuringProposal
13:43:27 [catgruff]
* catgruff ponders if ReleaseTypeRestructuringDiscussion should be moved to ReleaseTypeRestructuringProposal/Discussion
13:43:40 [workingmoose]
kay. need a break for a smoke, then I'll take a look at that, then back to our main problem: "bootleg".
13:43:42 [catgruff]
and if all pages with 'discussion' should do the same
13:43:54 [catgruff]
I had that idea when updating panda
13:44:07 [workingmoose]
catgruff: why change the path?
13:44:12 [catgruff]
dunno
13:44:16 [workingmoose]
Note I don't mind either way
13:44:28 [catgruff]
media wiki auto-has discussion pages for all pages
13:44:35 [catgruff]
this ight be a simpel hack
13:44:51 [catgruff]
I miss having discussion pages
13:44:57 [workingmoose]
catgruff: what do you think of this wiki hack ("Article | Discussion | History"): http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/PrimaryArtist
13:44:57 [catgruff]
separate from the actual page
13:45:07 [workingmoose]
can be added through card
13:45:12 [workingmoose]
encourage discussion page separation
13:45:22 [catgruff]
dunno what card is (have seen you mention itbefore)
13:45:31 [catgruff]
hmm!
13:45:41 [catgruff]
I like the little Article
13:45:41 [catgruff]
Discussion
13:45:41 [catgruff]
History thing
13:45:47 [catgruff]
but not the big block of test above that
13:46:00 [catgruff]
the tabs of artickel and discussino should all be on top always
13:46:01 [workingmoose]
Mean the breadcrumbs?
13:46:15 [catgruff]
uh.. is that what it called? :D
13:46:27 [workingmoose]
hey :p
13:46:30 [workingmoose]
big bread
13:46:51 [workingmoose]
whatever. the point here is the "Article | Discussion" thingie
13:46:56 [catgruff]
I like it
13:47:13 [catgruff]
but it's irritatignthat they have 'world (ie outside wiki)' icons
13:47:37 [workingmoose]
you can activate it simply by doing [[Card(Cards/WikiNavCard)]] in any page
13:47:45 [workingmoose]
yes, I'll fix the "world" icons
13:47:51 [workingmoose]
right now I had to hack it that way
13:48:03 [catgruff]
I see
13:48:04 [catgruff]
:)
13:48:21 [workingmoose]
time for that smoke
13:48:22 [workingmoose]
brb
13:48:44 [catgruff]
I like the simpler 'contence' box here http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/ClassicalStyleGuideDiscussion (whiel it's on the wrogn side, of course :))
13:48:47 [catgruff]
ok have fun
14:31:57 [catgruff]
arthat's one long fag :P
14:38:20 [makyron]
anyone have any thoughts on what should be done if an artist is listed as "Peter Martin Presents Anthanasia" on the CD?
14:38:38 [makyron]
In the MB database it's just Anthanasia... :-/
14:39:41 [catgruff]
it depends
14:39:50 [catgruff]
who's actualy the artist? :D
14:40:51 [makyron]
ha ha... I guess it's Anthanasia... but I guess it's probably a matter of whether you prefer intent or what's physically there....
14:41:27 [catgruff]
I like facts
14:41:30 [catgruff]
facts are nice
14:41:34 [catgruff]
they're... factual
14:41:39 [makyron]
just wondering about it since I had a few albums I was ripping tonight that had that problem
14:41:44 [catgruff]
as upposed to bogus
14:41:56 [makyron]
yeah... but it's a real gray area :(
14:42:21 [catgruff]
well the cd, should probably say something like "Peter Martin Presents Anthanasia: album name"
14:42:49 [catgruff]
which is as close to a representation that fits everything mostly it is
14:42:52 [makyron]
but it's only the one track that's got that artist...
14:42:59 [catgruff]
erh...
14:43:19 [catgruff]
wtf is it that peter martin is *doing* then?
14:43:25 [catgruff]
on that track+
14:43:27 [catgruff]
?
14:43:38 [makyron]
check it out... http://musicbrainz.org/release/4089f544-08e2-4fd7-ac9c-027519a5c867.html
14:43:55 [makyron]
Track 1
14:45:17 [makyron]
and then on Amazon it has what's on the CD itself... http://www.amazon.com/State-Trance-Vol-2/dp/B0007PIE0G/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3/104-9119235-9615933?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1177598655&sr=8-3
14:46:05 [makyron]
discogs has it with the "Peter Martin Presents" too http://www.discogs.com/release/418108
14:47:11 [makyron]
and on Armada (the label)'s website, it has the "Peter Martin Presents" http://supra.armadamusic.nl/?id=183
14:47:34 [makyron]
but there's no AR for "presents"
14:49:10 [makyron]
I guess I should change it... but then I'll have to create a new artist and probably merge it with the plain "Anthanasia" or maybe I should just create an alias for Anthanasia to "Peter Martin Presents Anthanasia" ? 9.9
14:49:27 [makyron]
* makyron sighs
14:59:10 [catgruff]
I don't know
14:59:17 [catgruff]
I wouldn't create a new artist though
15:04:20 [makyron]
yeah... probably the alias would be more sensible. :)
15:05:07 [aCiD2]
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15:05:16 [aCiD2]
Woohoo, found out who Nats + Jamie is
15:05:21 [aCiD2]
http://musicbrainz.org/show/edit/?editid=6787050 needs some votes now ^_^
15:06:32 [makyron]
yes :)
15:07:11 [aCiD2]
That was a fun bit of investigating :)
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15:11:00 [drsaunde]
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15:19:36 [aCiD2]
drsaunde, Nats + Jamie was solved :){
15:20:45 [drsaunde]
Good to hear
15:20:59 [drsaunde]
who was it?
15:21:26 [aCiD2]
Jack Adams
15:21:29 [aCiD2]
Spoke to Heathman's
15:21:40 [drsaunde]
nice!
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15:21:50 [aCiD2]
:)
15:21:59 [aCiD2]
Need some notes renaming Nats + Jamie now
15:22:01 [aCiD2]
http://musicbrainz.org/show/edit/?editid=6787050 needs some votes now ^_^
15:22:30 [aCiD2]
Gonna write a wiki page matching mastering engineers with aliases
15:23:29 [drsaunde]
cool
15:24:01 [drsaunde]
one person to talk to on that would be Schika..he's helped me with a couple previously
15:24:16 [aCiD2]
IRC?
15:24:40 [drsaunde]
i'm still very new to IRC..so I don't know if he comes here
15:24:48 [aCiD2]
Ah ok :)
15:24:57 [aCiD2]
I'll find him >:)
15:25:05 [drsaunde]
just when you are ready for feedback...he'll be able to help
15:26:28 [drsaunde]
i can only think of 2 at the moment...Nilz=Nilesh Patel ... Simon at the Exchange=Simon Davey
15:26:36 [aCiD2]
I have Simon
15:26:40 [aCiD2]
Not heard of Nilz
15:26:49 [aCiD2]
There's also Beau Thomas at Heathmans (Beau)
15:27:12 [aCiD2]
And a few other I have jotted down
15:28:15 [drsaunde]
Nilz could also be Nilz at the Exchange
15:28:46 [aCiD2]
http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?what=A&obid=386598 Very smiley :P
15:32:13 [drsaunde]
i remember those 2 (nilz & simon) as i've added many credits for both
15:32:17 [aCiD2]
Ok... a track has a sorta phone call at the end of it ("Hey Yo, this Afu-Ra, and your listening to my man DJ cam", etc) - should I add that as a relation?
15:32:52 [drsaunde]
well..technically yeah...probably "guest other vocal"
15:32:58 [aCiD2]
Ah, other
15:33:01 [drsaunde]
or
15:33:03 [aCiD2]
Wasn't sure what to file it under
15:33:07 [aCiD2]
Lead didn't seem right
15:33:19 [drsaunde]
"produced material sampled in"
15:33:39 [drsaunde]
depending on whether you think the snippet is original to the release or sampled from somewhere else
15:33:48 [aCiD2]
It's original
15:34:03 [drsaunde]
cool...i'd say "guest other vocal" then
15:34:06 [aCiD2]
Ok
15:34:37 [aCiD2]
A lot of releases have tracks like xyz (feat. Jay-Z) where Jay-Z only does the rap - should this be under "performed lead guest vocal" or just "performed"?
15:34:49 [aCiD2]
I always see it filed under the latter, but my additions are always like the former
15:36:21 [MxxCon]
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15:38:20 [drsaunde]
well...sometimes the credits aren't specific (for featured artists)
15:38:43 [drsaunde]
so they are originally set as just peformed (this was done automatically for many by a bot a while ago)
15:39:03 [aCiD2]
But you (the listener) knows they did the vocals, so should you trust your own feelings there?
15:39:06 [drsaunde]
when people know more specifically what the credit is..then they have been added as such
15:39:16 [drsaunde]
yeah
15:39:25 [aCiD2]
Ok
15:39:38 [aCiD2]
Btw drsaunde, how long you been with MusicBrainz?
15:39:47 [drsaunde]
only just over a year
15:40:08 [drsaunde]
but i've seen a lot of things :-)
15:40:12 [aCiD2]
:)
15:40:14 [aCiD2]
You an auto?
15:40:21 [drsaunde]
yah
15:40:26 [aCiD2]
Yum ^_^
15:40:50 [drsaunde]
i'm sneakin up on mudcrow for #2 in edits
15:40:56 [aCiD2]
:D
15:41:01 [MxxCon]
am i correct that i can't upload actual image of an album cover? it has to be deeplinked from a permitted site?
15:41:09 [srotta]
Yeah,.
15:41:09 [aCiD2]
MxxCon, Correct
15:41:18 [aCiD2]
CDBaby and Archive.org at the moment
15:41:18 [workingmoose]
workingmoose is now known as dmppanda
15:41:33 [MxxCon]
and amazon..
15:41:34 [drsaunde]
* drsaunde pokes the panda with a stick
15:41:41 [aCiD2]
MxxCon, through the ASIN, yea
15:41:54 [dmppanda]
* dmppanda bites the stick and shakes drsaunde out of his shoes
15:42:00 [drsaunde]
lol
15:42:05 [dmppanda]
:-)
15:42:17 [dmppanda]
got to dive into subway, once again
15:42:36 [dmppanda]
drsaunde: can I keep the stick, I might need it into subway :)
15:42:42 [MxxCon]
could be cool if amazon donated S3 storage to keep covers there
15:42:48 [drsaunde]
sure
15:42:58 [drsaunde]
Paris subway?
15:43:00 [aCiD2]
Hey neat, I'm in the top editors
15:43:02 [dmppanda]
yes
15:43:04 [aCiD2]
* aCiD2 didn't know that
15:43:04 [drsaunde]
is it nuts?
15:43:15 [dmppanda]
completely :-)
15:43:20 [drsaunde]
subway here isn't too bad....except for when it goes down
15:43:45 [MxxCon]
isn't subway down by default?
15:43:45 [dmppanda]
RER A is the world #1 subway line transporter (1 million person per day)
15:43:55 [dmppanda]
MxxCon: it is :p
15:44:08 [drsaunde]
suprise surprise...people here even (for the most part) let people off the subway before they get on
15:44:15 [MxxCon]
if subway doesn't go down it would be a train
15:44:31 [dmppanda]
actually, RER A is a bit of both :)
15:44:41 [dmppanda]
well, enough subway chitchat. gotta run!
15:44:44 [dmppanda]
bye!
15:44:46 [drsaunde]
mxxcon: lol..yes...subway is down by default
15:44:47 [dmppanda]
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15:44:47 [aCiD2]
cya
15:44:50 [drsaunde]
ciao
15:45:12 [drsaunde]
i meant when they have an accident/delay or suicide and they stop running
15:45:27 [inhouseuk]
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15:45:57 [MxxCon]
subway suicides common in...moose-land
15:46:00 [MxxCon]
?
15:46:47 [inhouseuk]
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15:49:00 [drsaunde]
well..yeah...somewhat
15:49:10 [drsaunde]
although they won't publicize them
15:49:17 [aCiD2]
Is there a wiki page about having feat. on the end of track titles?
15:50:03 [drsaunde]
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/FeaturingArtistStyle
15:50:35 [MxxCon]
http://musicbrainz.org/style.html#styleguide-feat-artist
15:50:45 [aCiD2]
Thanks, reading
15:50:53 [aCiD2]
Seems I'm meant to add feat.
15:52:19 [drsaunde]
i wouldn't...unless they are credited as such
15:52:29 [aCiD2]
Ahh
15:52:33 [aCiD2]
Don't add secondary artists...
15:52:45 [aCiD2]
Hmmm, I don't own a hard copy of the media so I'm gonna leave it
15:52:51 [aCiD2]
http://musicbrainz.org/release/ab4544fb-d1fc-472c-b519-20c5e142159f.html being the release in question
15:55:18 [drsaunde]
looks like the featured artists are credited as such on that one...although i couldn't find a scan quickly
15:56:54 [aCiD2]
Lol, wtf is "Artist <x> performed {additional} {guest} vacuum cleaner on <x>" ?!
16:00:09 [drsaunde]
vacuum cleaner has been added to the instrument list?
16:00:16 [aCiD2]
Yes
16:00:17 [aCiD2]
:S
16:01:10 [drsaunde]
I wonder if the Ferrari Jason Kay (Jamiroquai) likes to sample will get added next
16:02:15 [MxxCon]
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16:02:25 [aCiD2]
haha
16:05:49 [UserErr0r]
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16:06:26 [drsaunde]
or...i remember entering an album that sampled surgery procedures exsensively
16:06:37 [drsaunde]
exstensively
16:07:10 [drsaunde]
now the big question...is the liposuction "performed" by the surgeon or the patient? :-)
16:07:13 [ojnkpjg]
a chance to cut is a change to cure?
16:07:18 [ojnkpjg]
er, chance to cure
16:07:35 [ojnkpjg]
i think that whole album was made using nothing more than samples recorded in a hospital
16:07:41 [drsaunde]
yeah..matmos
16:07:43 [drsaunde]
thats it
16:07:56 [aCiD2]
Is it any good?
16:08:05 [ojnkpjg]
depends on your mood
16:08:47 [ojnkpjg]
definitely worth a listen
16:08:59 [drsaunde]
yes.definitely unique and creative
16:09:22 [aCiD2]
Cool
16:09:29 [aCiD2]
I'll check it out some day :)
16:09:44 [ojnkpjg]
http://www.discogs.com/release/1381
16:09:46 [ojnkpjg]
check out the notes
16:11:06 [drsaunde]
so...should the lipo be added to the instrument list :-)
16:11:55 [ojnkpjg]
only if it's performed live, i guess
16:12:07 [ojnkpjg]
that vacuum thing actually spawned a gigantic thread/flamewar on one of the lists
16:12:11 [ojnkpjg]
like, weeks long
16:12:46 [aCiD2]
Lol
16:12:50 [drsaunde]
hmm...i wonder how i missed it
16:13:03 [aCiD2]
I only just subscribed to the users list
16:13:09 [aCiD2]
Hasn't been a post since I joined
16:13:29 [drsaunde]
not that i'm against it..but you can tell by my comments...it possibly sets a dangerous precedent
16:13:31 [ojnkpjg]
drsaunde, might have been before you joined
16:15:44 [drsaunde]
what would be funny is if we get a credit of someone "arranging" the vacuum cleaner
16:15:53 [aCiD2]
lol
16:16:02 [aCiD2]
Has anyone used the vacuum cleaner yet?
16:16:19 [ojnkpjg]
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/pipermail/musicbrainz-style/2006-March/001692.html
16:16:39 [ojnkpjg]
i think the thread may have started before that, but it's all fragmented, and i'm not feeling ambitious enough to hunt it down
16:17:37 [aCiD2]
heh
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16:36:11 [aCiD2]
Does the MB Database support bands that split and reformed?
16:36:43 [aCiD2]
Eg, Terry Williams was with Man from some data, til 1997, then rejoined later on in 1995
16:36:48 [aCiD2]
some date*
16:37:30 [mudcrow]
add Terry Williams was a member of Man twice, with the dates
16:38:24 [aCiD2]
Ok
16:38:25 [mudcrow]
you can only set one date to forming & splitting for a band itself, so you have to add info about reforms in the annotation
16:38:26 [srotta]
Splitting and reforming isn't possible in the sense that there's no possibility of adding multiple formed/disbanded dates for a group.
16:38:44 [srotta]
What he said.
16:38:46 [srotta]
:P
16:38:47 [aCiD2]
:)
16:50:02 [ajh]
very strange, when I have a directory on samba and I'm importing files from it, when I save the last one the directory is being deleted.
16:50:55 [mudcrow]
in picard? picard deletes empty folders are moving files
16:51:02 [mudcrow]
are = after
16:51:22 [ajh]
hrm, being able to define exceptions to that is kinda important.
16:51:39 [MxxCon]
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16:52:03 [MxxCon]
hey folks, i'm back :) how do i indicate limited edition release?
16:52:15 [mudcrow]
disabling that should be in the options somewhere.
16:52:29 [mudcrow]
write it in an annotation MxxCon
16:52:40 [ajh]
going back to the options every single time and changing many things to get things working isn't really sane.
16:52:58 [ajh]
it also means you can't work on more than one directory at a time.
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16:59:52 [MxxCon]
hmm..annotation is visable only on the website.. not when i tag files
17:01:23 [mudcrow]
yes, but things such as limited edition & remastered are not considered part of a release title and so shouldn't be added to release titles
17:02:44 [drsaunde]
hey mud...finished anagram yet?
17:02:55 [mudcrow]
nearly :)
17:03:06 [BrianFreud]
morning :)
17:03:08 [mudcrow]
well, sort of nearly
17:03:15 [mudcrow]
morning
17:04:34 [mudcrow]
http://musicbrainz.org/label/83ca98d2-7d99-40f1-8e60-dc35c7b78508.html getting there though.
17:05:34 [UserErr0r]
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17:07:16 [aCiD2]
mudcrow: You own the entire catalog then?
17:07:41 [BrianFreud]
digging through the ten thousand lines from while I was gone... heh - dmpanda/catgroove = a similar legal loophole to the Italian one also existed in Australia for several years in the 90's (it's where most of the Italian companies moved to when the Italian loophole was closed)
17:08:22 [mudcrow]
nope acid2. (although I do own a bloody lot of anagram releases). But I do have the label website that lists (almost) every anagram release
17:08:45 [aCiD2]
What about track times?
17:08:57 [aCiD2]
Just leaving them out?
17:09:02 [MxxCon]
did you hear about that music reviewer with the largest itunes music collection in the world?
17:09:08 [mudcrow]
either imported from freedb or discogs, or left blank
17:09:24 [aCiD2]
MxxCon, largest music collection, or just largest collection on iTunes?
17:09:31 [aCiD2]
Either way, how big is it?
17:09:47 [MxxCon]
largest collection imported into itunes
17:09:49 [MxxCon]
not bought
17:09:53 [aCiD2]
Oh
17:09:55 [BrianFreud]
though, is "largest" really a good way to measure today?
17:09:56 [MxxCon]
~800gig
17:09:58 [BrianFreud]
I mean,
17:10:03 [BrianFreud]
if I had the storage,
17:10:10 [BrianFreud]
I could just pull usenet for 6 months
17:10:15 [BrianFreud]
I'd have a massive lib
17:10:35 [MxxCon]
http://www.glennwolsey.com/2007/04/19/interview-will-friedwald-owner-of-the-worlds-largest-itunes-collection/
17:10:44 [MxxCon]
he rip it all himself
17:10:51 [MxxCon]
mostly jazz
17:11:08 [BrianFreud]
aCiD2: by the way, I talked to Catgroove - he said my advice about that one album yest was wrong
17:11:11 [MxxCon]
849 GB | 172,150 tracks
17:11:33 [BrianFreud]
it ought to be set to the aliases with a reference to the real name, not the other way around
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17:11:59 [MxxCon]
get frinterprints from his collection would be sweet :)
17:12:33 [BrianFreud]
umm.... 849 GB isn't so large....
17:12:47 [BrianFreud]
my collections' pretty close to that
17:13:04 [BrianFreud]
thought it read you type was 849 tb :P
17:13:20 [MxxCon]
it's not e-penis size competition... :)
17:13:24 [BrianFreud]
lol
17:13:45 [BrianFreud]
well, mine wouldn't win :P one of the guys in here's filling a 7tb collection for some radio station
17:13:48 [ajh]
That must have cost a small fortune.
17:13:54 [MxxCon]
how do you manager your music?
17:14:11 [BrianFreud]
ajh: BMG, Columbia House, and lots and lots of memberships while in college
17:14:11 [BrianFreud]
lol
17:14:42 [MxxCon]
BrianFreud what do you use to manage your stuff?
17:14:54 [BrianFreud]
MxxCon: Well, Right now, I keep soundtracks, classical, old time radio, and "everything else" groupings
17:15:06 [BrianFreud]
"everything else" is sorted artist/album
17:15:13 [BrianFreud]
soundtracks are by title and year
17:15:22 [BrianFreud]
classical is by composer then performer
17:15:24 [aCiD2]
Weee
17:15:24 [aCiD2]
502
17:15:30 [MxxCon]
some software or file structure?
17:15:33 [BrianFreud]
olt time radio by show name, then date
17:15:40 [BrianFreud]
just use file structure
17:15:54 [ajh]
there any automated quality check tools?
17:16:01 [BrianFreud]
esp cause of the OTR, which is mostly 30-60 min shows at 16 to 32 bps,
17:16:11 [BrianFreud]
most music progs can't handle it
17:16:21 [aCiD2]
32bps..?!
17:16:27 [MxxCon]
ajh on windows there's EncSpot for mp3
17:16:44 [BrianFreud]
aCiD2: pretty much the standard for pre-1950's radio shows
17:16:52 [aCiD2]
32... bits a second?
17:17:10 [BrianFreud]
bps, kpbs, whichever it is:P
17:17:24 [aCiD2]
Right, I think you mean kbps :P
17:17:29 [BrianFreud]
just woke up, too early :P
17:17:39 [aCiD2]
But either way, that's awful quality, they must be important shows
17:17:52 [BrianG]
man discussions on wiki pages are hard to follow
17:18:00 [aCiD2]
Agreed
17:18:07 [BrianFreud]
you have to remember the state of recording tech when they were recorded
17:18:11 [aCiD2]
Mb.org is down atm for everyone else, right?
17:18:16 [ajh]
mxx not really what I mean, I mean something that'll rank them based on 'static' 'pops' 'clicks' and short-ends etc.
17:18:21 [BrianFreud]
music was recorded in 2 min chunks
17:18:25 [aCiD2]
BrianFreud, it's more the capability of the internet (56k modems)
17:18:32 [BrianFreud]
and ppl were making it record 30-60 min
17:18:34 [mudcrow]
yes aCiD2 for me anyway
17:18:38 [BrianFreud]
so original quality isn't great
17:18:39 [aCiD2]
mudcrow :(
17:18:52 [aCiD2]
ajh, does that tool exist on any os?
17:18:55 [BrianFreud]
and yes, aCiD2, that's one reason too :P
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17:19:25 [ajh]
aCiD2, no idea which is why I was asking.
17:19:39 [BrianFreud]
I normally just find those by listening
17:19:41 [ajh]
presumably you could run them through a battery of filters and look at what changes.
17:19:51 [BrianFreud]
all the "autodetection" progs get too many false positives
17:20:08 [srotta]
Sort of interesting to read about pre-50's radio shows and attribute their low bitrate to recording technology and ancient modems :P
17:20:09 [aCiD2]
BrianFreud, aye - was thinking that
17:20:19 [aCiD2]
srotta, oh, they were pre 50's?
17:20:23 [BrianFreud]
yes
17:20:29 [BrianFreud]
lol
17:20:30 [aCiD2]
Did digital even exist then?
17:20:33 [BrianG]
concerts (live, bootleg) that span multiple dates should be dated with what the billing of the artists performance was.
17:20:36 [aCiD2]
I don't get why it's 32kbps now then
17:20:48 [ajh]
Hrm, I absolutely installed my speakers in the wrong place. Damn.
17:20:49 [srotta]
aCiD2: Well, there was Colossus and all that crap 8)
17:20:54 [BrianG]
thats my comment on that livebootlegstylejunk :)
17:21:00 [ajh]
More wall drilling/cutting coming soon.
17:21:03 [aCiD2]
What's Colossus?
17:21:18 [aCiD2]
ajh, Mine are setup for djing
17:21:31 [aCiD2]
I have one speaker pointed at my face, and one the other side of the room, when I'm sat at the computer
17:21:33 [aCiD2]
:(
17:21:34 [BrianFreud]
BrianG: well, how do you cover when an artist goes into the studio for 5 days, but no records are kept as to when each bit on a master tape were recorded over those 5 days?
17:21:36 [HairMetalAddict]
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17:21:48 [BrianG]
BrianFreud: who cares? thats not a live bootleg
17:21:54 [ajh]
aCiD2, yeah I assumed I'd sit more facing the corner and with 4 monitors it looks more like facing the wall.
17:22:01 [BrianG]
hence LiveBootlegStyle
17:22:03 [ajh]
At least this means I can widen my soundstage somewhat.
17:22:05 [BrianFreud]
right, read the rest of my proposal for change, lol
17:22:13 [BrianG]
too confusing
17:22:15 [ajh]
Had to do custom wallmounts to get the speakers up.
17:22:21 [aCiD2]
Hehe
17:22:25 [ajh]
Should be able to lower them somewhat too.
17:22:33 [aCiD2]
My dad had a pair from his first house in the attic, I'm using them atm
17:22:36 [aCiD2]
Seem to work a treat :)
17:22:43 [srotta]
aCiD2: It was a British "computer" dor deciphering German code during WWII.
17:22:52 [aCiD2]
srotta, cool, never heard of that :)
17:22:54 [BrianFreud]
enigma?
17:23:03 [aCiD2]
I've heard of that
17:23:07 [ajh]
Heh, this is balanced 1/4 out into XLR in into a Bryston 2B-SST into B&W 603-S2's
17:23:13 [BrianFreud]
then you had the us version, colossus
17:23:16 [aCiD2]
Bbl, dinner's ready
17:24:18 [srotta]
BrianFreud: Enigma was the code, Colossus was the machine.
17:24:28 [MxxCon]
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17:25:37 [ajh]
Bombe was the main crypto machine.
17:25:46 [ajh]
At Manwith Hill in the UK.
17:27:33 [BrianFreud]
srotta: you're right - hmm... what am I thinking of... Ultima? don't remember :P
17:27:44 [BrianFreud]
Ultra, that's it
17:29:54 [srotta]
Well, there were several codes, and different machines for different tasks.
17:30:08 [srotta]
Enigma had several versions using different number of rotors etc.
17:30:34 [ajh]
Yeah, we've got one of the 3's in the museum here.
17:31:04 [BrianFreud]
yeah, I saw one of the bombe's at the NSA museum
17:31:33 [srotta]
I saw a review of some book that was about Colossus and Bletchley Park in general.
17:31:42 [srotta]
Sounded interesting.
17:32:29 [ajh]
Well, the two to read are of course the Codebreakers and the Puzzle Palace.
17:33:39 [BrianFreud]
ajh: you ever read the one about IBM and the Nazis? Really interesting read
17:34:01 [ajh]
No, though it would have been Hollingsworth wouldn't it?
17:34:14 [ajh]
Pretty sure they were HTC at the time.
17:34:48 [BrianFreud]
well, the author got his hands on a lot of unreleased IBM archival documents.
17:35:07 [ajh]
the bits about the barcode research?
17:35:20 [BrianFreud]
the story always has been that IBM kept the two separated, but he goes into a huge amount of detail as to how that really was only a legal fiction, but IBM was still pulling the strings
17:35:40 [srotta]
Heh, the name of the book was, tadaa, "Colossus: Bletchley Park's Greates Secret" :P
17:36:06 [BrianFreud]
http://www.amazon.com/IBM-Holocaust-Strategic-Alliance-Corporation/dp/0609607995
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17:36:26 [aCiD2]
:( Server is still down... what am I gonna dooo?!
17:36:47 [BrianFreud]
use the uk server?
17:36:58 [aCiD2]
For adding data?
17:37:16 [BrianFreud]
oic :P
17:37:25 [ajh]
someone familiar with HA really should get involved with the servers.
17:37:40 [aCiD2]
HA? Hydrogen Audio?
17:37:46 [ajh]
High Availability
17:37:56 [aCiD2]
* aCiD2 clearly isn't then
17:38:00 [BrianFreud]
Well, ruoak's had Sun there
17:38:07 [BrianFreud]
not sure why it's still not helping
17:38:22 [srotta]
The new server isn't in use yet?
17:38:29 [BrianFreud]
not sure
17:38:50 [BrianFreud]
last I heard from ruoak, day and a half ago or so, he said no not yet
17:42:23 [ruaok]
ajh: sure, I would love some help from an HA person. are they going to bring an HA budget with them?
17:42:35 [ruaok]
doing HA on hand-me down hardware is fun.
17:42:45 [BrianFreud]
lol
17:42:48 [BrianFreud]
* BrianFreud hugs ruoak
17:42:54 [ruaok]
:-)
17:43:05 [ruaok]
* ruaok hates pointless smartass advice
17:43:48 [aCiD2]
Ok, im out doing a dj mix... back in an hour or so (pm me if you wanna listen, it's streaming)
17:44:14 [BrianFreud]
hey, I'm just happy they work as much as they do :)
17:46:28 [ruaok]
it will be better soon.
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17:46:47 [ruaok]
the machine that is doing the DB right now will become the WS front end.
17:46:55 [ruaok]
and that will fix the problem we *just* had.
17:47:17 [phrontist]
hello all
17:49:39 [ajh]
ruaok, Piranha is free and works well.
17:50:10 [ajh]
but depending on what you're actually doing you may only need LVS and some database sync stuff.
17:50:34 [ajh]
more client side caching is probably needed though.
17:50:44 [ruaok]
fail over things don't help when your servers aren't failing.
17:50:56 [ruaok]
and, if you don't have a server to fail over to, then what?
17:51:06 [ajh]
what's the actual issue you're having?
17:51:10 [ruaok]
ajh: please send patches to patches@musicbrainz.org
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17:51:25 [ruaok]
gettings useless advice from know-it-alls.
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17:51:46 [phrontist]
woah
17:51:57 [BrianFreud]
think he's a bit frustrated atm
17:52:00 [phrontist]
* phrontist needed to ask him something
17:52:09 [ajh]
It's a shame that people get so stressed that they can't discuss the underlying problem anymore.
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17:52:21 [phrontist]
what is this underlying problem?
17:52:45 [ajh]
No clue, all I've seen is that the service fails regularly.
17:53:19 [ajh]
Which is usually either hardware/software failure, which he just said it isn't, overload, or poor design.
17:53:20 [yllona]
what's up fellaz?
17:53:26 [BrianFreud]
how goes it yllona?
17:53:31 [phrontist]
does it? I haven't used it all that much, but it seems to be pretty good
17:53:46 [ajh]
at least in the last week.
17:53:52 [yllona]
hangin' in there, how 'bout you BrianFreud
17:54:00 [BrianFreud]
ajh: the server for data entry is having issues, but the service itself hasn't failed once in the past 2 or 3 weeks
17:54:06 [BrianFreud]
just switch to the uk mirror for lookups
17:54:19 [BrianFreud]
not bad, not bad :)
17:54:22 [ajh]
There can't be that many people doing data entry at once.
17:54:29 [BrianFreud]
you'd be surprised
17:54:35 [phrontist]
ajh: yeah, it's pretty high use
17:54:44 [phrontist]
it's harder than you'd expect
17:54:47 [phrontist]
if you look at the code
17:54:50 [ajh]
Then perhaps the architecture is wrong.
17:54:50 [BrianFreud]
* BrianFreud gets 40-50 emails every 4 hours re-edits and such
17:54:51 [yllona]
ajh: yes there are, especially with the global reach that MB has
17:55:10 [yllona]
busiest times can be when the US goes to sleep and Europe wakes up :)
17:55:10 [phrontist]
ajh: a distinct possibility... do you know perl?
17:55:24 [ajh]
phrontist, sadly no. I mostly do design level stuff.
17:55:47 [phrontist]
ajh?
17:55:48 [ajh]
If it is a load issue then using a mechanism that can level out the load makes sense.
17:55:48 [BrianFreud]
well, ajh, he's had Sun there most of the week working to get things going again
17:55:54 [BrianFreud]
so he's got the right people
17:56:02 [yllona]
ajh: you need to review the existing design & proposed changes before you make blanket statements about "poor design"
17:56:18 [ajh]
Yeah, without a full review it's really impossible to say of course.
17:56:23 [phrontist]
ajh: Could you explain "design level"?
17:56:23 [yllona]
luks: how goes the Goog summer of code? has it kicked off yet?
17:56:39 [luks]
no, not yet
17:56:41 [ajh]
phrontist, the bits before you write any code.
17:57:01 [yllona]
luks: thanks, im having trouble keeping up with dates
17:57:16 [phrontist]
ah... so you must have a least a cursory understanding of perl... no design process could be completely language agnostic
17:57:38 [phrontist]
I ask only because from what I've seen of the code, it's fairly easy to delve into
17:57:43 [yllona]
phrontist: exactly, i couldn't have said it better :)
17:57:45 [BrianFreud]
phrontist: not so true re:perl - I don't know perl, but I do have c, c++, assembly, etc
17:57:54 [ajh]
yeah, not enough to write decent stuff though... hearing perl in a load-sensitive location is not a good start though. :)
17:57:59 [yllona]
launguage specifics are critical to poer design
17:58:07 [yllona]
*proper design
17:58:25 [phrontist]
oh come on, perl is very rarely the bottleneck
17:58:29 [ajh]
More relevant, does anyone know if there's a wiki page sumarizing the issues?
17:58:39 [yllona]
that's how you implement "information hiding" or "encapsulationZ"
17:58:47 [yllona]
*encapsulation
17:58:53 [ajh]
phrontist, again depends what you're doing.
17:59:19 [ajh]
if there's a design doc somewhere that would be the most helpful thing.
17:59:26 [BrianFreud]
luks: are bug entries like the few I entered useful for you, or are they just flooding you?
17:59:28 [yllona]
phrontist: the only bottleneck with perl is CPAN :P
17:59:46 [phrontist]
yllona: It's better than the alternative
17:59:50 [luks]
BrianFreud: they are very useful
18:00:00 [BrianFreud]
ok, will keep doing as I find em :)
18:00:00 [phrontist]
ajh: ah, well there is a legitimate issue - MB could use some better docs
18:00:01 [luks]
without them, I'm sure I'd forget most of them
18:00:04 [BrianFreud]
lol
18:00:05 [phrontist]
I plan to update them as I learn
18:00:46 [yllona]
phrontist: i was just kidding, as i spent quite a few hours last week chasing down a perl package on OS X *sigh*
18:00:49 [BrianFreud]
by the way luks, thanks for that help w/the naming string - rerunning the entire lib through, and it's really clean. Easy to see errors in the db too
18:00:54 [ajh]
Well, for example, is it backended into an sql or something lean and purpose done?
18:01:08 [yllona]
ajh: postgres
18:01:14 [ajh]
but still, without knowing what the problem is anything is guessing.
18:01:36 [BrianFreud]
was on postgres 8.0, as far as I know, he's moving it into 8.1 for some tweaks, then will be taking it to postgres 8.2
18:01:39 [luks]
ajh: the problem is that the current DB server can't handle that big database
18:01:49 [BrianFreud]
not enough RAM
18:01:51 [luks]
there is a new server, and people are working on getting it ready to use
18:01:52 [BrianFreud]
:)
18:01:54 [phrontist]
ajh: my understanding is that it's mostly a hardware issue
18:01:57 [ajh]
does keeping it all in one database make sense?
18:02:02 [phrontist]
ajh: yes
18:02:05 [yllona]
ajh: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/SG5DisasterRelief
18:02:14 [BrianFreud]
ajh: he's got a 12 gb database, and 4 gb of RAM can't handle it anymore
18:02:35 [ajh]
right, that makes sense... how much bigger can it get?
18:02:43 [BrianFreud]
infitinitely?
18:02:55 [ajh]
then the single db option isn't going to scale.
18:03:00 [BrianFreud]
think of all the releases not in there, plus all the ARs, etc
18:03:11 [yllona]
and check out the current pages of the MB blog for the Goog summer of code projects for upcoming design proposals. MB was awarded two Goog porjects
18:03:25 [ajh]
Keeping it as one is just betting that hardware capacity can be increased faster than data content.
18:03:35 [phrontist]
ajh: Your use of terminology is rather confusing here... do you mean splitting tables across machines?
18:03:56 [ajh]
Segmenting the data in some kind of way to allow accesses to scale.
18:04:18 [yllona]
ajh: i'm not sure if the current DB architecture documentation is up-to-date
18:04:22 [ajh]
(trying to discuss, not criticise btw)
18:04:40 [phrontist]
database parallelization will need to occur at some point, but it's pretty difficult
18:04:55 [ajh]
it gets harder as time goes on typically though.
18:05:23 [BrianFreud]
see, ajh, I think that's the distinction... right now, ruoak's under a lot of pressure, and though I'm sure he would love to discuss it, perhaps that's a conversation better held once ruoak has the server going again, and has time to do it?
18:05:23 [phrontist]
well, structural changes that would need to occur in the DB schema
18:05:45 [ajh]
BrianFreud, yeah having some background in advance is helpful though, I'm sure he's tired of explaining things.
18:06:15 [yllona]
ajh: http://blog.musicbrainz.org/archives/2007/04/google_steps_up.html
18:06:15 [BrianFreud]
well, any time he's in here, we all hit him with "server's down" complaints
18:06:21 [BrianFreud]
I can see how he's getting frustrated
18:06:56 [yllona]
ajh: http://blog.musicbrainz.org/archives/2007/04/google_summer_o_2.html
18:06:59 [ajh]
yep, of course.
18:07:15 [yllona]
ajh: http://blog.musicbrainz.org/archives/2007/04/our_servers_are.html
18:07:15 [mudcrow]
there has been a planned total rewrite of the db for some time, but MB does not have the funds to employ a fulltime programmer to write the code.
18:07:17 [BrianFreud]
ajh: you might try installing the db locally, to get some background as to how it currently works
18:07:38 [phrontist]
mudcrow: that's no longer true, as I understand it
18:07:40 [yllona]
and of course ruaok will be travelling most of MAy.
18:07:40 [ajh]
yeah, time issues again though :(
18:07:50 [yllona]
so he's cranking now :)
18:07:58 [phrontist]
see the above "google summer" link
18:08:08 [BrianFreud]
and hasn't had a day off in how long? :(
18:08:19 [phrontist]
does ruaok work on MB full time?
18:08:36 [phrontist]
to rephrase, does he have a day job?
18:08:55 [BrianFreud]
not sure
18:08:59 [yllona]
phrontist: will the most recent Goog donation, hopefully so.
18:10:28 [phrontist]
I'm a student, and am now working on a project tangential to MB, but when that's somewhat stable (ETA... 3 months) I'd like to start developing the MB server
18:10:30 [duckman]
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18:10:42 [phrontist]
I would do summer of code, but I would never meet google's standards
18:10:52 [BrianFreud]
phrontist: was it you who needed the large amount of artist/release info?
18:11:25 [phrontist]
yeah, I'm doing a radio station management system that will be based on a replicated MB database
18:11:40 [BrianFreud]
were you ever able to get the raw data chunk you needed?
18:11:48 [phrontist]
oh, no, I'm not at that point
18:11:56 [BrianFreud]
ok
18:13:08 [BrianFreud]
if you do get to that point, if you want to throw together a quick util to read the info out of mp3/ogg tags, let me know
18:13:19 [BrianFreud]
and I'll run it on my collection so you can get that data to play with
18:13:54 [yllona]
BrianFreud: i'm thinking bob marley & the wailers as the group that needs the most clean-up
18:14:03 [luks]
phrontist: I really hope you won't change your mind about working on the MB server! :)
18:14:04 [BrianFreud]
hmmmm....
18:14:16 [BrianFreud]
yeah, either Bob Marley *, or Pearl Jam
18:14:22 [BrianFreud]
either of those needs serious help
18:14:45 [BrianFreud]
but I still think that it might be more worthwhile
18:14:48 [yllona]
BrianFreud: Bob & the wailers are nominated in the MB wiki as "collab of the month"
18:15:07 [BrianFreud]
yllona: what do you think of the idea we were throwing around the other night,
18:15:21 [BrianFreud]
to make "all artists with only a single release" a collab of the month?
18:15:23 [yllona]
BrianFreud: which idea?
18:15:39 [yllona]
ah one hit wonders... yes good idea
18:15:43 [BrianFreud]
all it takes it one or two ppl who are big Bob fans to get that really cleaned, like I'm doing with Nirvana
18:15:53 [BrianFreud]
but the chances anyone will ever clean up the one-hit wonders?
18:16:07 [BrianFreud]
so we take, say, 1000 of them, and make them together the "artists" of the month
18:16:27 [BrianFreud]
as you clean one, you edit them off the collab wiki page
18:16:29 [yllona]
BrianFreud: it would be useful if we could find someone who grew up with Bob in the '70s, sadly Bob was never one of my faves for reggae
18:16:54 [BrianFreud]
well, I'm planning to finish Nirvana, then move on to Lead Belly
18:17:07 [BrianFreud]
that one's not gonna be fun :P