IRC log of musicbrainz on 2007-06-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:16:04 [rpedro__]
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00:20:29 [canidae]
eek
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00:49:06 [Blizard_Dragon]
hey all
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01:46:08 [ruaok]
* ruaok feels much better
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02:03:03 [chillware]
whats new gentlemen
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02:15:06 [ruaok]
gentlemen? where?
02:23:57 [BrianFreud]
night all.... to sleep, perchance to edit...
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08:41:38 [Cord]
http://musicbrainz.org/show/release/?releaseid=625391 <--- shouldn't that be a VA-album?
08:41:57 [Cord]
so, release under ZZ Top, but TRacks by American Blues?
08:42:55 [Cord]
see also http://musicbrainz.org/show/release/?releaseid=625393
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09:27:15 [HairMetalAddict]
Cord: That should be a VA disc listed with ZZ Top as the album artist. See as an example of a similar situation: http://musicbrainz.org/release/7956baef-db56-489b-a45b-cec30ba81250.html
09:30:51 [Cord]
yea. i tried to tell him in http://musicbrainz.org/show/edit/?editid=7081799
09:31:14 [Cord]
then he added ARs.
09:33:12 [Cord]
as i voted no, if nothing else happens that releases will rejected when time is up...
09:36:48 [HairMetalAddict]
Won't make it past voting.
09:43:17 [HairMetalAddict]
As for its validity as official release... http://www.play.com/Music/CD/4-/898122/The-Beginning-Of-ZZ-Top/Product.html ... It's quite possible the band had nothing to do with it, but the label that has their pre-ZZ works put it out, which would make it official since they have pre-ZZ's soul, er, copyright. Can't find anything actually written about it, and it's probably no longer in print, but I'd be willing to accept
09:43:17 [HairMetalAddict]
"official" for the time being.
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09:50:25 [catgroove]
yarr
09:50:25 [catgroove]
* catgroove has wonky sleeping routine
09:50:25 [catgroove]
yarr that report is way to big on one page ;_;
09:50:30 [catgroove]
yesterday was a shite day
09:50:40 [catgroove]
ruaok: here?
09:50:57 [yllona]
catgroove: it's 3am in cali
09:51:21 [catgroove]
and that is?
09:51:32 [catgroove]
uh, I just ogt a BSOD now
09:51:34 [catgroove]
time to restart
09:51:36 [yllona]
it's 3am in california
09:51:55 [yllona]
macs don't have BSOD
09:52:15 [catgroove]
I still don't know what 3am is
09:52:24 [yllona]
three in the morning
09:52:26 [catgroove]
is it 03:00 or 15:00
09:52:33 [yllona]
03:00
09:52:39 [catgroove]
then you're up early :o
09:52:57 [yllona]
3 hours ante-meridian
09:53:03 [catgroove]
also I know macs don't have BSODs
09:53:33 [catgroove]
I can't use it for intwernet because I have no eternet cable
09:53:38 [catgroove]
yet
09:53:59 [catgroove]
so no need to taunt me ;)
09:54:07 [catgroove]
* catgroove 'll be bbs
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10:01:49 [HairMetalAddict]
BSOD = Ballmer Seat of Death. First used a couple years back when Steve Ballmer was found to be throwing chairs in fits of rage.
10:02:01 [yllona]
:)
10:02:12 [yllona]
g'morning HairMetalAddict
10:02:31 [HairMetalAddict]
Wake up dead!
10:02:38 [HairMetalAddict]
* HairMetalAddict contemplates some Megadeth...
10:06:17 [HairMetalAddict]
* HairMetalAddict continues putting Picard-QT through hair metal hell
10:10:07 [ruaok_]
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10:10:24 [ruaok_]
* ruaok_ is also in cali and not asleep yet
10:10:51 [yllona]
g'morning ru
10:12:44 [ruaok_]
how r you?
10:12:48 [ruaok_]
* ruaok_ might be tipsy
10:13:28 [yllona]
doing okay. was out late last nite. so i over did the disco nap this afternoon :)
10:13:38 [ruaok_]
ha.
10:13:42 [ruaok_]
:-)
10:14:07 [ruaok_]
today was the first time I left the house/office since getting back. culture shock is abating I guess...
10:14:30 [yllona]
wow.
10:15:18 [ruaok_]
my bike friends are good for such things.
10:15:24 [ruaok_]
first step: get on your bike.
10:15:31 [ruaok_]
second step: find some booze
10:15:46 [ruaok_]
third step: do whatever you were supposed to do
10:15:49 [yllona]
ah, you were outside-- nice. it was yet another beauty-ful day ;)
10:16:11 [ruaok_]
yeah. I went for a 3.5 mile hike. 900 feet of elevation in 1.5hours.
10:16:16 [ruaok_]
I was moving good today...
10:16:33 [yllona]
that's impressive
10:17:18 [ruaok_]
* ruaok_ is amazed by http://laughingsquid.com/theremin-cover-version-of-gnarls-barkleys-crazy/
10:18:57 [FauxFaux]
Heh.
10:19:03 [yllona]
you *are* buzz'd :P
10:19:09 [ruaok_]
that guy is *good*
10:19:19 [ruaok_]
have you ever tried a theremin??
10:19:48 [FauxFaux]
I don't even know what one is!
10:19:52 [yllona]
i'm a fishbone fan from way back. they've used a theremin since the beginning
10:20:37 [ruaok_]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theremin
10:20:46 [FauxFaux]
'twas linked from the link. :)
10:20:57 [ruaok_]
not the same article though. :)
10:21:15 [ruaok_]
(at least not the text shown in the video)
10:24:50 [ruaok_]
ok, nap time for me.
10:25:01 [ruaok_]
nattaoysiumosnozomy!
10:25:10 [FauxFaux]
Night!
10:27:06 [catgroove]
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10:31:02 [catgroove]
* catgroove ♪ The White Stripes - A Martyr for My Love for You (4:19) ♪
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10:53:55 [pankkake]
♪ Darkened Nocturn Slaughtercult - The Pest Called Humanity: 3. The Pest Called Humanity ♪
10:54:01 [pankkake]
* pankkake <3 utf-8 characters
10:59:26 [FauxFaux]
* FauxFaux ♪♫ '浜崎あゆみ' - 'Depend on You (Svenson & Gielen radio edit)' from 'Trance Voices, Volume 10 (disc 2)' [2004-02-09] ♫♪
11:09:50 [yllona]
* yllona is listening to Cassandra by Branford Marsalis Quartet from Requiem (1999) (3:41 / 8:49.482971191406)
11:15:38 [yllona]
* yllona is listening to Come, Let Us Go Back To God by Sam Cooke & the Soul Stirrers from The Complete Specialty Recordings (2002) (0:00 / 2:02)
11:41:02 [catgroove]
grr
11:41:13 [catgroove]
* catgroove people stealing my looking thing
11:41:24 [catgroove]
use your bloody own :P
11:41:54 [FauxFaux]
You don't use ♫!
12:42:56 [BrianFreud]
that theramin vid is amazing! :)
12:46:05 [yllona]
BrianFreud: fishbone. final word on theremin :)
12:53:59 [HairMetalAddict]
* HairMetalAddict subjects Picard-QT to some Dr. Demento collections. Picard subsequently auto-installs the Funny Bone plugin.
13:02:51 [FauxFaux]
Heh, the replication data index is kind of silly, back-archives ftw. :/
13:06:52 [Apollozeus]
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13:18:01 [yllona]
okay g'night/morning all
13:19:38 [FauxFaux]
Gniorning yllona.
13:20:06 [yllona]
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13:26:05 [FauxFaux]
* FauxFaux sulks some more about the remixlands, I hate you all. :(
13:35:50 [aCiD2_]
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13:36:23 [aCiD2_]
Any server devs around?
13:36:27 [aCiD2_]
Other than me, obviously
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13:42:14 [FauxFaux]
Also, woop, picard will save "cover%musicbrainz_albumid%.jpg"s. <3
13:42:35 [FauxFaux]
aCiD2: Leadin questions suck.
13:42:45 [aCiD2]
Damn straight
13:42:56 [aCiD2]
But I can't get my darn database to import, and I want to do some development today :(
13:42:57 [FauxFaux]
Stop asking them, then. :/
13:43:16 [FauxFaux]
Worked for me last night. :)
13:43:30 [aCiD2]
* aCiD2 goes to try, yet again
13:43:44 [aCiD2]
I don't get any error messages from InitDb, and it always creates the schema, but I don't get any data imported
13:44:13 [FauxFaux]
It's very verbose, it's designed to cope with some files being missing, does it?
13:44:22 [aCiD2]
I'm going to try it again now
13:44:25 [aCiD2]
It's been a few weeks
13:44:28 [FauxFaux]
It prints something like "moddata not found, ignoring".
13:44:37 [aCiD2]
I have all the files
13:48:04 [aCiD2]
Uhhh, where do you get the data from now?
13:48:12 [aCiD2]
I can't see the link in INSTALL, or the debian server guide..
13:48:31 [aCiD2]
ahh, got it
14:18:41 [FauxFaux]
Anyone know what can cause picard not to pick up on there being cover art avaliable?
14:20:06 [BrianFreud]
what type of AR?
14:20:11 [BrianFreud]
ASIN or coverart?
14:20:42 [FauxFaux]
ASIN.
14:20:49 [FauxFaux]
ie. http://musicbrainz.org/album/df4a0f39-65d8-4177-b885-619ca155b5c8.html?tport=8000
14:21:14 [BrianFreud]
ok, ASIN
14:21:25 [BrianFreud]
there's some small # of the ASIN ARs which are borked somehow
14:21:31 [BrianFreud]
there's a few tickets in on it
14:21:44 [BrianFreud]
they report to Picard as the release not having an ASIN
14:22:11 [FauxFaux]
Mm, it getse the ASIN into the tags, though.
14:22:25 [BrianFreud]
* BrianFreud loads into Picard to see
14:23:51 [aCiD2]
You guys are Picard hackers now?
14:24:00 [FauxFaux]
Users, not hackers. :p
14:24:06 [aCiD2]
haha
14:25:07 [BrianFreud]
yup
14:25:08 [BrianFreud]
users
14:25:37 [BrianFreud]
I wrote some plugins though! Crappy ones that don't do much and reuse a lot of luks' code - but none the less! :D
14:26:18 [aCiD2]
haha, anything is good! :)
14:28:20 [BrianFreud]
on that one FauxFaux, I see nothing borked - it is passing the ASIN, it's not a customer image, etc.
14:28:46 [BrianFreud]
BrianG had the same problem on a few ASINs. I think he has a ticket in on it - it's not the same as the other ASIN table problem.
14:36:26 [FauxFaux]
Heh, fun one there: http://bugs.musicbrainz.org/ticket/2889
14:38:27 [FauxFaux]
http://bugs.musicbrainz.org/ticket/2515 is the one.
14:38:32 [aCiD2]
lol, weird (#2889)
14:40:01 [BrianFreud]
yeah, 2889 is a bit odd
14:40:17 [BrianFreud]
if you add enough ARs that that AR slips out of "view" in the normal view, the cover goes away
14:40:27 [FauxFaux]
It's obviously only fetching and looking at the first N relationships, regardless of whether they're cover ones.
14:40:31 [BrianFreud]
unless you view all relationships, then it comes back
14:41:35 [FauxFaux]
And MusicIpMixer is such a FAG.
14:44:26 [FauxFaux]
And now some albums with cover art but no relationships! Woo.
14:53:45 [BrianFreud]
those are the old ones
14:54:17 [BrianFreud]
the old auto-asin bot didn't make ASIN ARs, it just inserted the ASIN directly into wheever else those get stored
14:54:35 [BrianFreud]
2515 is basically about ARs that do the reverse, for whatever reason
15:06:59 [FauxFaux]
http://musicbrainz.org/album/ed1de100-ad18-49cb-b213-efa385eecae0.html?tport=8000 <-- another set.
15:07:11 [FauxFaux]
BrianFreud: I think we need a report! :P
15:08:06 [BrianFreud]
hehe
15:08:16 [BrianFreud]
I'm still working on the last asin report :P
15:08:33 [BrianFreud]
* BrianFreud expects that'll be true for at least a few days :D
15:09:19 [BrianFreud]
though just a suggestion for the other asin report - I modified a local copy to this
15:09:45 [BrianFreud]
The info links might be better linked via http://musicbrainz.org/edit/url/edit.html?urlid=ROWID, goes right to the edit screen bypassing the in between screen
15:10:25 [BrianFreud]
on your copy, that is, not the MB server copy
15:13:05 [FauxFaux]
Like so?
15:14:01 [BrianFreud]
yup
15:14:21 [BrianFreud]
* BrianFreud envies the ability to do that easily... search and replace took 25 minutes on the whole thing :P
15:14:36 [FauxFaux]
That was with search and replace, your text editor sucks. :P
15:14:44 [BrianFreud]
lol
15:14:55 [BrianFreud]
most of mine just choked on the sheer size of it
15:15:02 [FauxFaux]
5mb? :/
15:15:10 [BrianFreud]
lol, yeah
15:15:11 [FauxFaux]
Textpad starts getting sad around 800mb.
15:15:43 [BrianFreud]
textpad was out, notepad pro was out, word and wordpad were out, had to use 2 notepads, doing s&r 1000 or so at a time
15:15:53 [FauxFaux]
... :p
15:16:19 [BrianFreud]
lol
15:16:24 [BrianFreud]
hey, it worked :D
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15:28:09 [BrianFreud]
actually FauxFaux, luks is the expert on all those funky ASIN issues :)
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15:50:07 [FauxFaux]
BrianFreud: Subtle. :p
15:52:45 [BrianFreud]
:D
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16:07:50 [FauxFaux]
Mm, mp3splt doesn't like the cue files that picard generates, and it won't say why.
16:07:58 [FauxFaux]
It doesn't work if you remove the comments, either.
16:24:04 [_julian__]
_julian__ is now known as _julian
16:28:47 [catgroove]
faux: wasn't talking about you, ♫ is cool
16:29:33 [catgroove]
ugh, falling a-sleep on the couch in the liffing room where the cats lie all the time sucks
16:29:36 [catgroove]
I am hair-o-rama
16:29:37 [catgroove]
* catgroove ♪ The White Stripes - Conquest (2:48) ♪
16:30:07 [FauxFaux]
* FauxFaux plays 'The White Stripes' - 'Seven Nation Army' from 'Elephant' [2003-03-31].
16:32:22 [catgroove]
BrianFreud The info links might be better linked via http://musicbrainz.org/edit/url/edit.html?urlid=ROWID, goes right to the edit screen bypassing the in between screen <-- i'd like to keep that screen plz, in case url requires removal, not editing
16:33:02 [FauxFaux]
Kind of curious that there's no back button.
16:33:39 [FauxFaux]
http://faux.uwcs.co.uk/badasinsspecialformo.html ;p
16:34:32 [catgroove]
I can has pagiantion?
16:34:39 [catgroove]
pagination*
16:35:13 [FauxFaux]
D:
16:35:29 [catgroove]
can't edit at all because huge page takes up ram
16:43:44 [catgroove]
sol!
16:43:53 [catgroove]
sun's outside!
16:43:55 [catgroove]
yay!!
16:45:59 [catgroove]
fauxfaux: I can has pagination?
16:46:26 [catgroove]
or negative?
16:48:27 [BrianFreud]
mo: makes sense
16:48:58 [BrianFreud]
if you want, I can chop a chunk off my copy to a separate page for you, so you have a smaller page mo
16:49:02 [catgroove]
yes but does fakefake seethat?
16:49:16 [catgroove]
ehh. no thanks
16:49:20 [BrianFreud]
he doesn't see any of the changes - he's working off the dump copy
16:49:33 [catgroove]
uh..
16:50:08 [BrianFreud]
his report won't show any of the changes til next time he imports a new copy of the database dump
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16:54:39 [catgruff]
hnrg
16:55:12 [catgruff]
also none of my games are playable onthe mac
16:55:56 [catgruff]
(this sucks)
16:56:40 [BrianFreud]
games that worked under ME?
16:56:51 [catgruff]
yes
16:58:34 [catgruff]
it has exe
16:58:43 [catgruff]
macboxen no like exe
17:01:04 [BrianFreud]
I had to try and remember the name of the program... I've not tried it, but Parallels might help - as long as they're ME compatible games, and not all directX fancyness games
17:01:17 [catgruff]
erh
17:01:23 [catgruff]
directx works on me
17:01:28 [catgruff]
most games require direct x
17:01:48 [BrianFreud]
which directx though, like 6 or 7, or are you playing ones that need 8 and 9?
17:01:56 [catgruff]
it depends on the game
17:02:17 [catgruff]
some are 7 some are 8 and even 10, it depends on how old thegame is
17:02:24 [FauxFaux]
BrianFreud: I got replication working, so the reports from faux.no-ip.biz (which'll be off-line until at least saturday, 'cos I'm going somewhere with it :P) are live give or take an hour, the dumps never change, obviously. :)
17:02:52 [catgruff]
I still need pagination before I can start using it :(
17:03:05 [FauxFaux]
Write it yerself. ;p
17:03:06 [BrianFreud]
just checked, supports up to directx 8.1 http://parallelsvirtualization.blogspot.com/2007/05/yes-you-heard-rightparallels-desktop-30.html
17:03:20 [catgruff]
but. it .does. nothing. with .'exe'.s
17:03:25 [catgruff]
witch is my problem
17:03:39 [catgruff]
i put thedisc in, and mac just sits there. confutzed
17:03:45 [BrianFreud]
right, parallels is basically a windows emulator for mac, to run those
17:03:51 [BrianFreud]
FauxFaux: So the reports ought to update even though the dump hasn't?
17:04:04 [catgruff]
I think this box can't use that..
17:04:10 [catgruff]
ruaok said something like that..
17:04:19 [BrianFreud]
mo: they have a pic of windows quake 4 running on mac :)
17:04:26 [BrianFreud]
hmm, I don't know
17:04:43 [BrianFreud]
it's not as superpowerful of a mac, but it ought to at least run... maybe slower though
17:05:51 [catgruff]
uh, it costs money
17:05:58 [BrianFreud]
yeah :(
17:06:55 [catgruff]
also the way I read this
17:07:16 [catgruff]
one needs to have windows and mac installed on the same machine?
17:07:45 [BrianFreud]
* BrianFreud looks...
17:09:04 [BrianFreud]
I don't know
17:09:20 [BrianFreud]
they have a 15 day trial version though, so once you get the net working on the mac, can try it for free
17:09:46 [catgruff]
hmn
17:10:06 [catgruff]
* catgruff hates shareware that stops working after so and so long time
17:10:13 [catgruff]
its a designed bug in the program
17:10:19 [BrianFreud]
hehe
17:10:21 [catgruff]
also 15 days!
17:10:27 [catgruff]
ugh, uusally its 30..
17:10:40 [catgruff]
hmm must go lick sun
17:10:43 [catgruff]
hmm
17:10:49 [catgruff]
that translated from norwegian badly
17:10:56 [BrianFreud]
I wondered :P
17:10:59 [BrianFreud]
sounds rather painful
17:11:20 [catgroove]
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17:12:23 [catgruff]
* catgruff hits ruaok for tags breaking
17:12:26 [catgruff]
http://musicbrainz.homeip.net/show/release/tags.html?id=259433
17:12:37 [catgruff]
that "g rne" should be 'gærne'
17:12:51 [catgruff]
wtf no latin1?
17:13:04 [catgruff]
no UNICO(DE)WS?
17:13:12 [catgruff]
lol unicow
17:13:27 [catgruff]
* catgruff is now know as mø|unicow
17:13:28 [luks]
ruaok needs just to update the code, it's already fixed
17:13:32 [catgruff]
sweet
17:13:36 [catgruff]
hi luks
17:13:36 [BrianFreud]
it doesn't seem to like anything non a-zA-Z0-9
17:13:41 [BrianFreud]
ah, cool
17:13:43 [BrianFreud]
hi luks :)
17:13:45 [luks]
hi
17:19:50 [FauxFaux]
I hate perl. /me burns catgruff.
17:19:56 [catgruff]
* catgruff doges
17:20:02 [catgruff]
dodges
17:22:51 [FauxFaux]
Rar, hackiest paginator ever, http://faux.uwcs.co.uk/badasins/0.html
17:23:18 [grink]
badasians?
17:23:51 [FauxFaux]
Bad amazon urls, maybe.
17:25:28 [catgruff]
BrianFreud: tell tehme then
17:25:31 [catgruff]
them*
17:26:02 [catgruff]
how many pages? http://faux.uwcs.co.uk/badasins/42.html
17:26:51 [catgruff]
uh
17:26:58 [catgruff]
whats wrong with "http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q2XB" ?
17:27:32 [catgruff]
hmm
17:27:35 [BrianFreud]
no clue
17:27:39 [catgruff]
.com likes exec though I know
17:27:53 [BrianFreud]
but the system specifies it ought to be gp/product, not exec/obidos or dp/product
17:28:06 [catgruff]
for .com too?
17:28:09 [BrianFreud]
yeah
17:28:10 [BrianFreud]
all of em
17:28:12 [catgruff]
luks?
17:28:17 [luks]
yes?
17:34:46 [catgruff]
you coded this, can you uhelp us?
17:34:52 [catgruff]
I thought .com liked exec?
17:36:39 [BrianFreud]
if it does, then the way the current AZN parser works - converting all .com to gp/product - is funkored
17:39:33 [catgruff]
I may be wrong though, I don't know, did they change it?
17:39:37 [catgruff]
I don't remember :(
17:40:09 [BrianFreud]
just reading through that discussion in the forums
17:40:32 [BrianFreud]
it *appears* that www.amazon.TLD/gp/product/ASIN is the correct format.
17:40:46 [catgruff]
I see
17:40:53 [catgruff]
that cangedthen.. oh well
17:40:59 [BrianFreud]
That the other, depricated forms of the url currently work seems a bonus, but we can't count on them continuing to work.
17:41:11 [catgruff]
so many urls I have to fix.. (i even foudn my own url i enterd :(
17:41:38 [Amblin]
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17:41:50 [BrianFreud]
plus, lol, would you rather have http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/B000FJA9L6 or http://www.amazon.co.jp/060ab0ca-38ve4-%E6%9C%88%E5%B3%B6%E3%81%8D%E3%82%89%E3%82%8A-starring-%E3%83%A2%E3%83%BC%E3%83%8B%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B0%E5%A8%98%E3%80%82/dp/B000FJA9L6
17:42:16 [BrianFreud]
(you can see why azn changed the url format...)
17:45:43 [catgruff]
amazon == weird
17:46:31 [catgruff]
heh opera ftw http://www.amazon.co.jp/060ab0ca-38ve4-月島きらり-starring-モーニング娘。
17:46:35 [catgruff]
opera++
17:47:06 [BrianFreud]
heh
17:47:14 [catgruff]
http://www.amazon.co.jp/060ab0ca-38ve4-月島きらり-starring-モーニング娘。/dp/B000FJA9L6 yay FULL link
17:47:14 [BrianFreud]
I just see lots of html escape codes :P
17:47:20 [FauxFaux]
My connection keeps dropping, sorry.
17:47:32 [catgruff]
oh?
17:47:38 [catgruff]
didn't see you log out
17:48:39 [FauxFaux]
I'm using maaagic.
17:48:43 [catgruff]
:o
17:58:28 [catgruff]
who's merging into jimi hendrix? http://musicbrainz.org/show/artist/?artistid=184
18:00:50 [catgruff]
ugh I found it http://musicbrainz.org/show/artist/?artistid=240625
18:01:26 [catgruff]
I don't know what to think ofthat....
18:01:32 [catgruff]
I don't know enough
18:05:40 [BrianFreud]
I'm not getting involved. It's yet another of BrianG's edits in that series... I've fought them too many times already..
18:06:38 [BrianFreud]
He's merging away Bob Marley's legal name, Cher's, Madonna's, Jimi Hendrix's, etc
18:07:50 [BrianFreud]
http://musicbrainz.org/show/edit/?editid=7081755 http://musicbrainz.org/show/edit/?editid=7073298 http://musicbrainz.org/show/edit/?editid=7073164 etc
18:09:02 [catgruff]
don't agree with cher and madonna
18:09:11 [catgruff]
those are definite 'performance' names
18:09:50 [catgruff]
hmm
18:09:54 [catgruff]
* catgruff goes and makes cake
18:10:01 [catgruff]
and! and and and!
18:10:07 [catgruff]
okonomiyaki! :d
18:25:33 [aCiD2]
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18:26:58 [FauxFaux]
http://musicbrainz.org/doc/AddRelationshipEdit <-- that's one sexy page.
18:30:08 [hawke_]
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18:43:56 [VxJasonxV]
I see morning musume
18:44:15 [FauxFaux]
* FauxFaux sees a vibrating VxJasonxV.
18:44:37 [VxJasonxV]
O_o
18:44:40 [VxJasonxV]
liar
18:52:27 [yllona]
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19:34:17 [Jugdish]
Jugdish has joined #musicbrainz
19:34:55 [Jugdish]
lol @ HairMetalAddict
19:35:46 [Jugdish]
feel sorry for you last.fm mods having to deal with the hell that's broken loose while the staff is out for the weekend
19:40:58 [Jugdish]
they're probably all getting trashed at glastonbury
19:41:20 [yllona]
and muddy. don't forget the mud.
19:42:15 [VxJasonxV]
what's going on @l.fm? O_o
19:43:00 [Jugdish]
--> http://www.last.fm/forum/21713/_/297275
19:43:15 [yllona]
submission servers have been wonky all weekend.
19:44:08 [ruaok_]
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19:45:28 [VxJasonxV]
awesome
19:45:36 [VxJasonxV]
they usually are pretty wonky
19:45:47 [VxJasonxV]
so are the ws.audioscrobbler.com content servers
19:45:51 [VxJasonxV]
(databases and the like)
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19:59:04 [Mon_ami_Mani]
Mon_ami_Mani is now known as Hetches
20:06:17 [Hetches]
Hi everybody, I have some question regarding the new picardqt on a mac. Is anybody would like to try answer my questions?
20:10:05 [krazykiwiMB]
i'm not sure any of us can
20:10:08 [krazykiwiMB]
but you can try
20:10:50 [yllona]
i have macs but don't use picardqt
20:16:24 [Hetches]
Ok Well I managed to install everything even libofa and ffmpeg. I am now stuck at the configuration of picardqt exactly this step: python setup.py config -I /usr/local/include:/usr/local/include/ffmpeg/ I think it is wrong because the command doesn't change anything in the build.cfg file.
20:16:52 [yllona]
ah, that's a question for kiwi or coop
20:18:15 [Hetches]
luks on the macinstall guide page mention this page that he use for his windows install: http://musicbrainz.org/doc/PicardQt/BuildingOnWindows I know where those file: libavformat.a libavcodec.a libavutil.a libgcc.a are on my mac. I just don't seam to be able to use the comamnd either -I or -L or -l so that the configure take them
20:19:06 [krazykiwiMB]
it probably shouldn't change the on disk file, you're just setting up the environment for that invocation of python
20:19:57 [krazykiwiMB]
firstly, do you have those directories (I don't know the mac filesystem layout too well,although that's where I'd expect them to be on a bsd based system, which mac os is, broadly)
20:20:46 [Hetches]
ok thats the thing i am not a specialist in coding or compling... i know my way and try and fail... but picardqt was the first app i compile myself...
20:20:55 [krazykiwiMB]
that is: do you have /usr/local/include/ffmpeg in particular, and does it actually have a library in it :)
20:21:46 [Hetches]
well it is not there actually, wait i'll tell you where they are as well with the libofa file.
20:22:00 [krazykiwiMB]
oh and static libs are just way fun to play with anyway
20:22:26 [yllona]
Hetches: did you read here: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/PicardQt/MacInstallGuide?action=show&redirect=MacOSXPicardQtInstallationGuide
20:23:43 [krazykiwiMB]
heh, i better read that, before I start 'helping' in a bad way
20:23:47 [Hetches]
the files: libavformat.a libavcodec.a libavutil.a libgcc.a are here /usr/local/lib/
20:23:52 [dalen]
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20:23:53 [krazykiwiMB]
they are in that directory?
20:24:26 [dalen]
didn't it use to be possible to enter invalid barcodes?
20:24:27 [Hetches]
yes that why i think that luks configure command is wrong and i don't get why he put a :
20:24:41 [krazykiwiMB]
I can't actually read clearly with this font
20:25:03 [Hetches]
yllona, unfortunatly to go there i need a usename and pss which i don't have... for this
20:25:03 [krazykiwiMB]
but you need -I (with a capital I the letter that comes after H) to point to the header files (filename.h) directory
20:25:14 [krazykiwiMB]
and you need to have those header files in that directory
20:25:22 [krazykiwiMB]
hetches: mbwiki and mbwiki
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20:26:03 [Hetches]
ok thanks
20:26:17 [Hetches]
it was written there sorry!
20:26:17 [dalen]
ok, it's possible from add release event, but not from add release
20:27:00 [ruaok_]
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20:27:38 [luks]
hi Hetches
20:27:39 [luks]
http://chatlogs.musicbrainz.org/2007/2007-04/2007-04-28.html#T13-02-51-641732
20:27:47 [Hetches]
hi luks
20:27:50 [luks]
you need to edit build.cfg manually
20:27:56 [luks]
the mac guide on the wiki is wrong
20:28:32 [Hetches]
really there is no way to input the right command for the configure so that it will make the build.cfg right?
20:28:46 [dalen]
luks: just noticed you can add invalid EANs from "add release event" but not from "add release"
20:28:53 [luks]
oh
20:29:09 [luks]
Hetches: no, currently it isn't
20:29:28 [luks]
er, there isn't
20:29:42 [krazykiwiMB]
brian: continue the accusations in public, please
20:29:47 [dalen]
luks: have to press that "yes I'm sure" button, but there's no such button on add release page
20:29:49 [krazykiwiMB]
i will not be responding to you privately any further
20:30:02 [krazykiwiMB]
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20:30:34 [BrianFreud]
For the record, there were no accusations made.
20:30:40 [lauri]
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20:30:52 [luks]
dalen: can you please add it to bugs.mb.org?
20:31:11 [luks]
I probably forgot to add the checkbox there :(
20:31:20 [yllona]
welcome back lauri.
20:35:48 [dalen]
luks: added
20:35:56 [luks]
thanks
20:36:00 [dalen]
#2982
20:36:32 [dalen]
got some funky Hocico bootleg with the barcode 4 2424242424 2
20:36:47 [luks]
heh
20:41:43 [lauri]
luks: before it gets embroiled into a big old argument, could you comment from a code perspective on handling names the IMDB way (would this be, for instance, more doable with NGS?)
20:42:25 [luks]
names?
20:43:24 [lauri]
heh, i'm guessing you will never see that email
20:43:35 [lauri]
on imdb, every 'person' has one page
20:43:55 [lauri]
if they've used 10 names in credits, they all go on that page, specific credits get a '...as Some Other Name'
20:44:13 [lauri]
all the names are simply aliases to the 'person' as an object, and the most commonly used credit is shown as the primary name
20:44:38 [luks]
how is is different from our current aliases?
20:44:49 [yllona]
the display
20:44:49 [lauri]
richard james + aphex twin + afx
20:44:51 [BrianFreud]
PerformanceNames
20:44:52 [lauri]
are all one person on imdb
20:44:53 [luks]
ah
20:44:59 [BrianFreud]
vs LegalNames
20:45:12 [lauri]
legalnames is a misnomer, in any case
20:45:28 [Cord]
isn't this one feature of NGS?
20:45:29 [lauri]
imdb do specify one as 'birth name' if they know it (but it gets no special display on the filmography page)
20:45:36 [lauri]
that's what i'm asking
20:45:47 [lauri]
if it is, then there's no point having yet another argument over the whole deal now
20:46:00 [luks]
well, that's just a one 'implementation' layer above ARs
20:46:04 [luks]
not really a NGS thing
20:46:04 [lauri]
if it's not, can it be? in which case... no point having yet another argument (redux)
20:46:42 [lauri]
and if it could be done now, do you see any big problem with it, code wise
20:47:00 [Cord]
lauri: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/NextGenerationSchema#head-08f418668c162ab0b3e69d8c2ab4c5f1e462ec4e 'The release artist concept'
20:47:33 [BrianFreud]
Question then luks: For performance names and legal names (and whatever other ARs/artists might cause the same person/group to be listed in the database multiple times), when they map to NGS, what impact would it have having them exist in that way, with proper ARs, vs having them all merged back together without those separate artists or ARs?
20:47:37 [luks]
the problem is that we have two kind of aliases
20:48:18 [lauri]
brianfreud: pretend i am a performer (just go with me)
20:48:24 [lauri]
i have one name, on my birth certificate
20:48:32 [lauri]
I have another, anglicised, on my english language birth certificate
20:48:50 [lauri]
i had my name changed when i was 5, when my mother married, by deed poll, to include my stepfather's name
20:48:58 [lauri]
i have been married, and divorced
20:49:12 [lauri]
i have a combination of the above, on my passport from NZ, and a different one on my passport from Sweden
20:49:24 [lauri]
they are _all_ names i'm entirely legally allowed to use, at least in NZ :)
20:49:29 [lauri]
which one would you link my AR's to?
20:49:37 [Cord]
(then you can't travel to US )
20:49:43 [BrianFreud]
well, first, are you doing anything musical to be listed anyhow? ;)
20:50:02 [BrianFreud]
seriously though
20:50:05 [lauri]
assume i did :)
20:50:07 [yllona]
hang on brian. it's agood example.
20:50:15 [lauri]
should I not, because my names are too complicated?
20:50:19 [BrianFreud]
Ok, but here's the difference
20:50:27 [lauri]
(it's not even contrived, it's my real situation :)
20:50:27 [yllona]
* yllona thinks of a performer with similar complexity
20:50:34 [lauri]
terence trent d'arby
20:50:38 [BrianFreud]
Are you performing as any of those names?
20:50:44 [lauri]
is not his real birth name, the name he grew up under, or his current legal name
20:50:55 [yllona]
yes, carlos santana, john mclughlin, alice coltrane
20:50:56 [lauri]
so he's got at least 4, all reasonably legal
20:51:00 [BrianFreud]
ok
20:51:16 [yllona]
cat stevens
20:51:20 [BrianFreud]
So let's say your current legal name is "Jane Doe Smithson"
20:51:32 [lauri]
which one gets the AR's? (cos nobody's looking him up under sainanda maitreya to enter a 1980's compilation album)
20:51:44 [BrianFreud]
And growing up you performed as "Mary Jane Clemson"
20:51:47 [yllona]
anyone who did that muslim/buddhist/hindi name change thing in the 60s or 70s
20:51:57 [lauri]
and then went back in the 80's :)
20:52:09 [BrianFreud]
and currently you perform as "Jane" (no last name, nor are you well known as anything other than "Jane")
20:52:18 [yllona]
lauri: yes!
20:52:44 [lauri]
which one is legal? under the current guideline wording, and proposals to change it, 'birth name' got tossed around... but lots of people change those
20:52:57 [BrianFreud]
Why not have your legal name exist, with the performs as ARs to the 2 performance names, as indicated by the guidelines?
20:53:08 [lauri]
but which one of mine is my legal name?
20:53:15 [yllona]
let's use alice coltrane as an example. because she'll have the spouse & children AR's to boot
20:53:21 [lauri]
i mean, i have two passports with different names on :)
20:53:24 [lauri]
both quite legally
20:53:36 [BrianFreud]
lauri: I'm sure, were you say to be summonsed to court, there would be a singular legal name they would address the summons to?
20:53:50 [lauri]
they'd pick one, sure
20:53:53 [BrianFreud]
which?
20:53:55 [lauri]
but that doesn't make it my only legal name
20:53:58 [luks]
aren't you forgetting that MB is about artists, not people in general?
20:54:01 [lauri]
if it's a traffic summons, it'd be the one on my car title
20:54:02 [BrianFreud]
no
20:54:07 [lauri]
if it was about immigration, it'd be the one on my passport
20:54:20 [lauri]
if it was cos i didn't pay property tax, it'd be the one on my house deed, i expect
20:54:33 [yllona]
alice coltrane performed as alice macleod, before marrying john coltrane
20:54:36 [BrianFreud]
luks: currently, the guidelines specify that legal names ought to be created and used for all the non-musical info, ARs, birth/death dates, etc.
20:54:53 [lauri]
if it was to testify or be a juror, it'd be probably a common name that isn't exactly any of the above
20:54:56 [BrianFreud]
with a "performs as " AR then linked to the, well, performance name used
20:55:09 [luks]
BrianFreud: I don't think there is such guideline
20:55:17 [BrianFreud]
lol, I can quote them
20:55:21 [luks]
the only one is that you shouldn't link two performance names with "performs as"
20:55:27 [lauri]
luks: there is, but it's very ambiguously worded, and was written before AR's really were put into practise
20:55:40 [lauri]
and it's never been rewritten, although we've discussed it plenty
20:55:41 [yllona]
mcleod is her birth name. after john coltrane's death she founded an ashram, changed her name to "By the late 1970s she had changed her name to Turiyasangitananda."
20:55:55 [luks]
I don't think there is anything about birth/death dates or non-musical info
20:55:58 [lauri]
oh yeah, i would totally look her up under that one
20:56:05 [BrianFreud]
Most specifically, this one: "A Performance Name is an alias used by a musician for marketing or other
20:56:05 [BrianFreud]
reasons. A particular person may have several Performance Names at different
20:56:05 [BrianFreud]
times, and they might also release material under their LegalName. For this
20:56:05 [BrianFreud]
reason, it's necessary to have separate artist records for legal names and
20:56:05 [BrianFreud]
performance names."
20:56:26 [lauri]
i would really like to check back wiki history and see who put that, and when, now that i think about it
20:56:35 [BrianFreud]
and following that, there's a guideline on how to determine what legal name to use.
20:57:00 [yllona]
she recorded and performed as "Turiyasangitananda" -- i have the albums
20:57:00 [BrianFreud]
My point is, these merges may make sense. But they ignore the guidelines, and noone's brought it up on the style list, nor has anyone drafted an RFC.
20:57:06 [lauri]
and that one, has been under heavy ongoing discussion on the mailing lists for ages, because of ... people like me, terence, cat stevens, yllona's very good example there
20:57:14 [luks]
BrianFreud: where is that?
20:57:16 [lauri]
we HAVE bought it up on the mailing lists
20:57:18 [yllona]
on occasion alice would still perform as alice coltrane
20:57:21 [BrianFreud]
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/PerformanceName
20:57:44 [lauri]
just obliquely, we were first trying to nail down the whole legal name thing, because those guidelines are all predicated on figuring out wtf a legal name is (which is just impossible)
20:58:07 [BrianFreud]
What's wrong with the definition in the wiki? "The birth certificate is the usual place you will find a legal name. However, legal names can be changed at any time (eg by marriage, deed poll etc)."
20:58:23 [lauri]
what's wrong is, read the last ten minutes
20:58:33 [BrianFreud]
ok, then let me ask
20:58:46 [lauri]
that might give you one possible legal name, at one particular point in someone's life
20:58:47 [BrianFreud]
with all the ambiguity, and knowing that "legal name" is a currently debated concept
20:58:52 [lauri]
which just isn't how the world works
20:58:54 [BrianFreud]
aren't these merges premature?
20:59:27 [lauri]
did you see me vote yes on them?
20:59:41 [lauri]
nooo, you didn't, although i'm sure you assume i did
20:59:53 [lauri]
cos guess what: I prefer to nail down the style guidelines first
21:00:20 [yllona]
* yllona sends a virtual cocktail to lauri & a glass of chamomille tea to BrianFreud
21:00:22 [lauri]
but: Wille crafoord (the example I gave) - not using all his middle names, doesn't make Wille Crafoord a performance name, it is, by all accounts, including asking him
21:00:27 [lauri]
his real legal name
21:00:28 [BrianFreud]
Lauri: no, you didn't.. but you expressed an opinion: krazykiwi: 2007-06-22 10:51:12 EDT I so dearly want to vote yes on this, but I don't know if my gmail account can handle it, with only about 2Gb spare.
21:00:49 [lauri]
note to self: do not comment on edits in future, it's not allowed
21:00:59 [BrianFreud]
did I say that?
21:01:08 [lauri]
you seem to like to put words in my mouth
21:01:13 [BrianFreud]
what words?
21:01:35 [lauri]
oh your emails are full of assumptions what i'm about, all utterly wrong
21:01:37 [BrianFreud]
correct, you didn't vote. you said you wanted to vote yes
21:01:43 [yllona]
* yllona walks away from this spat. life is too short :P
21:01:43 [BrianFreud]
what emails?
21:01:52 [BrianFreud]
I've not made any assumption about you.
21:01:58 [lauri]
i did find it cute you quoting back at me my refrain of 'let's do it properly by RFC, not just ignore guidelines we don't like'
21:02:02 [lauri]
very funny
21:02:08 [lauri]
i'm with yllona
21:02:17 [lauri]
I think you just like to pick fights, and dislike being challenged
21:02:20 [BrianFreud]
lauri: You seem to think I have some grudge against you.
21:03:13 [lauri]
so lukz: anyway, there was a point to all this: is it worth me rfc'ing a modification to that guideline, to modify the language to something softer (in rfc terms: a MAY, not a MUST, i think would defuse it pretty well)
21:03:32 [BrianFreud]
I suggested that perhaps a certain type of edit was bad. I take advice and no's all the time in good favor, often agreeing. You and I disagre on this. Just because I disagree with you, I always dislike being challenged, and I like to pick fights?
21:03:35 [lauri]
or should we wait until NGS, and aim for something like the IMDB's unified 'one person, one page' discography display
21:03:39 [luks]
can't say anything right now
21:04:02 [luks]
because as soon as I see huge emails I simple skip them
21:04:07 [BrianFreud]
lol
21:04:07 [luks]
so I guess I need to read mb-users first
21:04:14 [lauri]
nah, you already got most of it
21:04:31 [luks]
but 'one person, one page' seems very wrong to me
21:04:39 [lauri]
why?
21:04:44 [luks]
it should be 'one recording artist, one page'
21:04:57 [lauri]
ok, but that artist, under any name
21:04:58 [luks]
afx and aphex twins are two different recording artists
21:05:05 [luks]
-s
21:05:08 [lauri]
no, they aren't :)
21:05:13 [luks]
yes, they are
21:05:23 [lauri]
lol, ok
21:05:24 [luks]
they even play different style of musi
21:05:24 [BrianFreud]
luks: but then how would you link them, without also a legalname artist? who is the performance name for who?
21:05:26 [luks]
c
21:05:36 [lauri]
i know they do
21:05:44 [luks]
BrianFreud: I wouldn't
21:05:55 [lauri]
but they're still one person, and each release would have the appropriate credits on it
21:06:01 [BrianFreud]
there we agree
21:06:05 [luks]
the only way I can think if is the discogs way, which is extremly stupid
21:06:23 [BrianFreud]
* BrianFreud isn't sure how discogs does it
21:06:24 [lauri]
luks: how about
21:06:28 [lauri]
Richard James
21:06:37 [lauri]
.... as AFX (tree of those releases)
21:06:41 [luks]
BrianFreud: link each everything to everything
21:06:44 [lauri]
.... as Aphex Twin (tree of those releases)
21:06:46 [luks]
er, -each
21:06:59 [lauri]
... as Any other name he comes up with
21:07:07 [BrianFreud]
luks: ie, relationshipcluster it all and ignore that there's a simpler way to do it :)
21:07:14 [lauri]
.... is also known as (any other aliases he's used for production, remixing, etc, I know there are some)
21:07:17 [luks]
yes
21:07:35 [BrianFreud]
lauri: that's exactly how we do it now
21:08:00 [BrianFreud]
AFX <---performs as--- Richard James ---performs as---> Aphex Twin
21:08:18 [lauri]
all on one page, no it isn't
21:08:21 [luks]
there are two different things: aliases and name variations
21:08:22 [lauri]
ok, here is my best imdb example
21:08:29 [BrianFreud]
no, but we don't have a system that allows it all on one page
21:08:33 [lauri]
based on someone who had a radical change of genre in their film career between name changes
21:08:34 [luks]
I don't want to see AFX records and Aphex Twin records on the same page
21:08:35 [lauri]
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000183/
21:08:43 [BrianFreud]
nor would I :)
21:08:46 [luks]
but I wan to see AFX records and A F X records on the same page
21:08:49 [luks]
want
21:09:14 [BrianFreud]
So then, why would we want to merge Madonna Louise Veronica Ciccone into Madonna?
21:09:17 [lauri]
but I do want to see them on the same page, they're the same person
21:09:31 [luks]
BrianFreud: I wouldn't
21:09:37 [lauri]
i want to be able to look at the sum output of richard james career, in overview
21:09:43 [BrianFreud]
right - that's why I called attention to these edits.
21:09:45 [lauri]
and not have to dig around and find them all
21:10:03 [BrianFreud]
the way to do it though isn't just to merge all the legal and performance names into one person
21:10:06 [yllona]
BrianFreud: madonna dis perform using her full name back in the day, especially as a go-go dancer
21:10:22 [yllona]
* did perform
21:10:43 [luks]
IMDB and MB are very different databases, and I wouldn't expect them to use the same logic for this
21:10:52 [lauri]
luks: what if, you could have all richard james stuff on one page, but choosing an 'aka' (in imdb speak) would take you to a filtered, narrower view of just that name
21:10:53 [luks]
actors fortunatelly don't use aliases
21:11:00 [lauri]
lol, yes they do
21:11:01 [lauri]
constantly
21:11:03 [luks]
so IMDB is about people, MB is about recording artists
21:11:03 [BrianFreud]
right, as did Robert Marley/Bobby whatever/Bob Marley, as did Cher/Cherilyn Sarkisian LaPierre
21:11:07 [yllona]
IIRC her name was truncated because it was too long to fit on a cassette label
21:11:10 [BrianFreud]
hence why I called attention to these
21:11:11 [lauri]
actors are forever changing their names
21:11:36 [BrianFreud]
it wasn't my likeing to pick fights, or not being able to handle disagreements. I simply think this series of edits is bad in principle
21:11:37 [luks]
lauri: show me one actors that plays comedies as A and dramas as B
21:11:43 [luks]
*actor
21:11:45 [lauri]
i just did
21:12:09 [yllona]
luks: ice cube
21:12:09 [lauri]
traci lords, changed her name to traci elizabeth lords when she tried to have a 'straight' film career
21:12:21 [lauri]
and eventually went back to skipping her middle name, after many years, and when it didnt' really matter anyway
21:12:27 [yllona]
ooh, even better example
21:12:36 [yllona]
here's another ludacris
21:13:00 [yllona]
* yllona knew traci in high school, very sad story
21:13:05 [lauri]
(and until she was in her 30's, and changed it by deed poll, neither was her legal name, which is norma kuzma)
21:13:44 [BrianFreud]
one offhand, Alexander Siddig --> Siddig El Fadil
21:13:47 [lauri]
she made it quite clear in her book that she switched name when she switched genre,so to speak
21:13:50 [lauri]
oh there's a good one too
21:13:50 [luks]
ok, but still... if you want this in MB, we need to rename entity 'artist' to 'person'
21:13:59 [BrianFreud]
right
21:14:01 [lauri]
naw, cos it could work just as well for bands
21:14:10 [lauri]
Teddybears STHLM changed their name to Teddybears this year
21:14:11 [BrianFreud]
merging just to merge, bad in my opinion.
21:14:21 [lauri]
they have a performs as AR just now, but they had no change in lineup, or musical style
21:14:26 [lauri]
they just got famous outside of sweden
21:14:46 [lauri]
BrianFreud: creating names, just to give a dead end ar to them, bad in my opinion
21:14:56 [yllona]
here's my favorite name confusion for a band: Parliament/Funkadelic
21:15:03 [BrianFreud]
;p;
21:15:05 [BrianFreud]
lol
21:15:11 [lauri]
covenant -> the kovenant (they did change musical style, but it wasn't coincidental with the name change, it was a couple of albums later, and quite gradual)
21:15:12 [yllona]
the AR mods for P-Funk will be insane
21:15:17 [lauri]
and that one
21:15:30 [yllona]
60+ members in their heyday
21:15:45 [lauri]
i daren't even guess which of those names to look for stuff under, and they sure as heck are the definition of a genre all by themselves
21:16:10 [lauri]
cassetteboy: has entire albums where a:) he's the only performer and b:) every track has a different performance name on it
21:16:21 [yllona]
yep. i'm gonna try to recruit the guy that maintains their fan site (artist endorsed)
21:16:23 [lauri]
of Montreal: changed style, and lineup, a dozen times, never changed their name :)
21:16:26 [luks]
lauri: cassetteboy is very different case
21:16:52 [luks]
and I think covenant -> the kovenant, too
21:17:01 [luks]
those *should* be on the same page
21:17:05 [lauri]
why? they are performance names, name changes
21:17:17 [lauri]
so should teddybears
21:17:19 [luks]
no, they are variations of one performance name
21:18:09 [lauri]
the last 'the kovenant' album, and the first 'covenant' album, i dare any of you to guess it was the same band (one's electronic industrial stuff, the other is prototypical growling norwegian black metal)
21:18:26 [lauri]
which is ironic, really, considering why they had to change their name, but that's going off on a tangent
21:21:43 [luks]
lauri: front line assemble is a nice case
21:21:46 [lauri]
from my point of view, it would be beneficial to be able to go to one (person, band)'s page, see there _all_ the other names they have used
21:21:50 [lauri]
and which names did which albums
21:21:51 [luks]
would you want all their side projects on one page?
21:21:56 [BrianFreud]
but all this gets back to the main point. Just calling any legal name an alias and merging the legal and performance names, is, in my opinion, not something that ought to just be left to whoever happens to see the edits and vote on them.
21:22:18 [lauri]
front line assembly is one lineup though, most of their side projects aren't
21:22:19 [luks]
er, I'm really too tired, *assembly
21:22:35 [lauri]
from that one 'overview' page of that one person (or band's) career, we could still click the names to go to a filtered view of just that 'credit name''s output
21:22:54 [BrianFreud]
sure - but we can't currently.
21:23:19 [lauri]
i know that
21:23:29 [lauri]
but that's what i would like it to be like
21:23:30 [BrianFreud]
though I can go to the legal name page and click on all the performance ARs to get something similar
21:23:48 [lauri]
no, you can do that to get a whole bunch of fragments of a discography
21:24:02 [lauri]
there's no way currently to see 'everything richard d. james ever did'
21:24:11 [BrianFreud]
not all in one screen, no
21:24:31 [BrianFreud]
but merging all of the various names he's used, plus his legal name, into one big listing isn't the way to get that view.
21:24:34 [lauri]
if there was, and if the 'birth name' was attached to that, for display purposes, and any other 'legal names' they have
21:24:40 [lauri]
i never said it was
21:24:45 [lauri]
it's not what i asked for either
21:25:06 [BrianFreud]
well, that's what these edits are doing, in my opinion. Hence why I thought they merited attention.
21:25:11 [lauri]
good for you
21:25:19 [lauri]
this has nothing whatsoever to do with any edit
21:26:16 [yllona]
luks: is it possible to do a display like this: http://imdb.com/name/nm0000401/
21:26:38 [yllona]
do you see the field labeled "alternate names"?
21:26:42 [luks]
not right now, but will be
21:26:54 [luks]
currently we do have aliases, but they are not used
21:27:05 [lauri]
and scroll down to the around 1990
21:27:13 [yllona]
ah, oaky -- that's the gist of this discussion. carry on ;)
21:27:17 [lauri]
see how _those_ credits (under a different name) are noted as such
21:28:01 [lauri]
merging larry and laurence is a nonevent, because we don't lose the differences (and if clicking those names would give a filtered view of 'just those names credits' even better)
21:28:44 [lauri]
i'm not claiming imdb's solution is perfect, but i think it's better than having to go back to some arbitrarily chosen legal name to find other credits for what is essentially the same person
21:29:10 [BrianFreud]
Would you say the same about a group?
21:29:26 [yllona]
and if you want to go really far back, he was credited as "little larry fishburne" as a child actor:P
21:29:28 [lauri]
i already did
21:29:31 [lauri]
several times over
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21:30:08 [lauri]
a group that changes name, for legal reasons, or because they got a record deal and the label told them to, without a lineup change, shouldn't have to have their discography split
21:30:09 [FauxFaux_]
Yeah, so, my magic ran out. :(
21:30:32 [luks]
lauri: right
21:30:40 [BrianFreud]
sure, I'd agree. I'm also though looking at what we currently can do with the system we've got.
21:30:42 [lauri]
(or for an example that _should_ be split, kmfm -> mdfmk -> kmfdm)
21:31:06 [lauri]
they broke up, to get out of a record contract, and reformed with 3 of the same 5 members, but made it very clear they were a different band
21:31:06 [luks]
I though this is about different groups with the same lineup
21:31:08 [luks]
thought
21:31:33 [luks]
not the same (renamed) group
21:31:43 [lauri]
nono, this is about 'the same group'
21:31:57 [lauri]
teddybears, again
21:32:18 [luks]
then the same group in NGS will have a couple of name variations (aliases) and just one page
21:32:37 [lauri]
right, that was how i was thinking
21:33:02 [lauri]
but for people, I would want to pull all 'this is me, just me, performing under the name of ...' credits into one overview
21:33:03 [luks]
the tricky part is to agree on what is 'the same group'
21:33:21 [lauri]
i think it has to be case by case really, but most of them aren't that contentious
21:33:22 [luks]
you say AFX and Aphex Twin are the same artist, I say they are not
21:33:37 [lauri]
no, i do understand about performance names
21:33:47 [lauri]
i just want to be able to look at one _person_ from a higher level too
21:34:22 [lauri]
even if it splits those names within the page (we already split up albums from live, why not one level higher 'performing as AFX', expand it, see that tree of releases
21:34:28 [lauri]
or click afx to get a page of just those
21:34:32 [lauri]
whatever makes more sense
21:34:48 [luks]
that is an implementation detail
21:34:52 [lauri]
yes it is :)
21:34:58 [luks]
you still need an entity that represents the 'person'
21:35:00 [lauri]
but to take front line assembly, it wouldn't be merged with delerium
21:35:14 [luks]
so merging madonna to her official name is wrong
21:35:14 [lauri]
yes indeedy
21:35:32 [luks]
er, the other way around
21:35:35 [lauri]
nope, you' effectively merge them to 'mb-performance-entity-id-number'
21:35:36 [luks]
but the point is the same
21:35:45 [lauri]
and have both be showing up on her page as names she's used
21:36:11 [lauri]
(on imdb, the one with the most credits, defaults to being the name at the top of the page, but you can in fact put an edit in to specify one over another as 'preferred')
21:36:42 [lauri]
but the name at the top of the page is arbitrary, the url (and their 'id number' in the db) remains the same
21:36:52 [luks]
the problem with this is that 'preferred' is subjective
21:36:55 [lauri]
again, all implementation i guess
21:37:08 [lauri]
well, again on imdb, it's agents and the artists themselves who mostly do that
21:37:21 [lauri]
so while it's very subjective, it's at least fairly reliable data :)
21:37:32 [lauri]
for us, using the 'most commonly credited as...' would work fine, for most people
21:37:58 [luks]
so the AFX page will be titled with "Aphex Twin"?
21:38:14 [luks]
(that looks soooo wrong to me)
21:38:22 [lauri]
it wouldn't be the afx page though :)
21:38:33 [luks]
what if I want to see only AFX releases?
21:38:36 [lauri]
it'd be the 'all the stuff richard d. james has done, under any name
21:38:59 [lauri]
click that name on the page, to see a narrowed view of just those releases
21:39:22 [lauri]
instead of now having a 'richard d. james' page, with nothing but ar's, and links to the performance names
21:39:41 [lauri]
we would have a richard d. james page, with ar's, links to the performance names... and a merged overview of the entire output of his career to date
21:39:58 [lauri]
(and he's a good example for where we might want to edit his actual name to be the one at the top of the page, instead of defaulting it)
21:40:04 [lauri]
you see?
21:40:33 [lauri]
subjective as it may be, i doubt that would be a contentious vote (subjectivity doesn't always mean we have to have an argument, sometimes the obvious answer is... the obvious answer)
21:41:03 [luks]
yes, but I don't see how is merging the entities (merging rows physically in the db) is a good thing
21:41:07 [BrianFreud]
Yes, I agree, and that would potentially be a good view to have for the artist. So then why merge away the legal names?
21:41:14 [BrianFreud]
lol
21:41:19 [luks]
because to display such page, you need RDJ entity
21:41:27 [luks]
ARs to all his performance names
21:41:37 [luks]
and from that data, you can display the 'merged' pages
21:42:35 [lauri]
this has nothing to do with merges
21:43:49 [lauri]
although, you could, then, merge things like madonna's full name to madonna, because a) it would be displayed visibly anyway, and b) she doesn't have any releases under that name
21:44:06 [lauri]
but that's not really the point
21:44:34 [BrianFreud]
* BrianFreud doesn't understand quite what the point is then
21:44:34 [luks]
I meant merge as in overview of all releases under all performance names
21:44:55 [luks]
not physical DB merging
21:45:00 [lauri]
why _not_ merge away arbitrarily chosen legal names based on a moment in a person's lifetime
21:45:12 [lauri]
if they don't actually have any releases
21:45:29 [lauri]
or ar's specific to them
21:45:39 [BrianFreud]
because to have such a 'central hub' 'real name' as you're referring to, you need them.
21:46:13 [lauri]
why?
21:46:13 [luks]
exactly
21:46:16 [BrianFreud]
otherwise you get performance names linked to performance names, but none to the 'real artist', aka legal name
21:46:20 [lauri]
you need _one_ name for each person
21:46:39 [lauri]
you can add as many more as you like, as aliases or performance names
21:46:58 [lauri]
the ones of those that have actual credits, get a page of their own too automatically, if you want to drill down to it
21:47:05 [BrianFreud]
performance name for who? the legal/real name has been merged away...
21:47:06 [lauri]
the ones that don't have actual credits, don't need one
21:47:57 [luks]
if you merge performance names to official names, you don't have performance names anymore :)
21:48:10 [lauri]
no, look at this the other way
21:48:11 [luks]
so you can't add releases, credits to them
21:48:22 [lauri]
if they aren't performance names, they don't need a page of their own
21:48:27 [BrianFreud]
lol, so merge Madonna into Madonna Louise Veronica Ciccone? :D
21:48:34 [lauri]
no no no
21:48:35 [lauri]
think of a wiki
21:48:47 [lauri]
you create a link to ThingThatDoesn'tExistYet (an alias)
21:48:54 [yllona]
disambiguation
21:48:58 [lauri]
if it's got a credit to go on it, you click that, add the credit, voila, there is a page now
21:49:09 [lauri]
if there's no credit... it doesn't have a page (but it could, when a credit turns up for it)
21:49:20 [lauri]
it doesn' t _need_ one until there's somtehing on it though
21:49:25 [BrianFreud]
sounds a lot like a "performs as" AR linked back to a legal name...
21:49:36 [luks]
lauri: but all wikis have http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/WikiHome
21:49:44 [lauri]
[23:39] <lauri> instead of now having a 'richard d. james' page, with nothing but ar's, and links to the performance names
21:49:44 [lauri]
[23:40] <lauri> we would have a richard d. james page, with ar's, links to the performance names... and a merged overview of the entire output of his career to date
21:49:47 [lauri]
read that again
21:49:51 [BrianFreud]
and the legal name listing having the birth date, death date, all the other personal info we care to link in
21:49:58 [lauri]
shall i paste it again?
21:50:36 [lauri]
i'm saying, pull all the data together, you click further only where there's data there to click to (actual credits on _that_ performance name)
21:50:36 [luks]
lauri: how do you tell that "AFX" and "A F X" and "A.F.X" are the same alias with this schema?
21:50:51 [BrianFreud]
no, but you've not answered the question. How do we link all that in on a Richard D James entry if that entry no longer exists, because it was merged into Aphex Twin?
21:51:11 [lauri]
no, you are asking a spurious question, I didn't say merge aphex twin into richard d james
21:51:22 [luks]
you said one entity per person
21:51:34 [BrianFreud]
lol, I was trying to stay with your example. I'm thinking of Madonna, Cher, etc.
21:51:36 [lauri]
this is getting silly
21:51:40 [luks]
so you have one person with multiple performance names
21:51:50 [luks]
a simple 'star' topology
21:52:00 [BrianFreud]
exactly how I see it :)
21:52:03 [lauri]
right
21:52:07 [yllona]
luks: yes, like the larry fisburne IMDB page
21:52:11 [lauri]
exactly
21:52:25 [lauri]
and all his credits on that page, no matter what name they were under
21:52:31 [luks]
with performance names and aliases we have something I don't really know how to call in english
21:52:32 [BrianFreud]
lauri: so how do you have a star topology when the center point gets merged into one of the tips of the star?
21:52:49 [yllona]
luks: :)
21:53:02 [luks]
but you have official name (RDJ), performance name (AFX), name variations (AFX, A F X, A.F.X)
21:53:18 [luks]
displaying AFX releases on RDF page is simple
21:53:32 [lauri]
that's the entire darn point!
21:53:36 [luks]
but if you merge all of them together, you can't tell the difference between them enymore
21:53:48 [lauri]
i don't want to merge them, i want to display them together
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21:53:50 [BrianFreud]
right - and as currently represented at least, we have a RDJ entry, a AFX entry, performs as AR between the two, and aliases for A F X and A.F.X. on AFX
21:53:52 [yllona]
luks: i think you've got it :)
21:54:54 [BrianFreud]
lauri: Then I think I agree with you - or the reverse, lol. Hence why I see that type of merge as a bad thing, if we want this type of view later :)
21:56:03 [lauri]
ok, richard d. james is a bad example because a) he has a well known real name that he uses on all sorts of things and b) the only thing he doesn't use it on, is actually making music, most of the time
21:56:47 [lauri]
and he has lots of credits that really do belong to that name
21:56:49 [lauri]
but take madonna
21:57:05 [BrianFreud]
as yllona pointed out, she actually did publish under that name at one point
21:57:05 [lauri]
she really doesn't have any credits under madonna louise ciccone (or madonna louise ciccone ritchie)
21:57:24 [lauri]
but madonna could be her primary page
21:57:30 [luks]
does she have any other performance name?
21:57:35 [lauri]
well, madge :)
21:57:51 [yllona]
BrianFreud: those credits would be long lost, and i seriously doubt she'll ever release them -- as madonna is the control freak from HELL
21:57:56 [BrianFreud]
lol
21:58:11 [lauri]
but we could add those names as aliases, with a nice display, and when (if) they do have a credit, create the page for it
21:58:22 [BrianFreud]
true, but not just Madonna. Take the Hendrix, the Marley, or the Cher examples too
21:58:37 [lauri]
so all names would be there, and visible on all performance name pages
21:58:44 [lauri]
but only the ones with credits would take you somewhere (to another page)
21:58:51 [luks]
lauri: the only reason why I disagree with this is that I want two levels of "aliases"
21:58:57 [BrianFreud]
Hendrix - one perf name, nothing under the legal name. Marley - yes, but only a single, two performance names. Cher - not as far as I know, and only the one perf name
21:59:27 [lauri]
so jimi hendrix page would show his legal name, if someone added it, nicely displayed
21:59:28 [yllona]
just like we may never see lenny kravitz's original recordings as "romeo blue" -- if had had such a massive crush on him in high school, i would never know that they existed
21:59:40 [Hetches]
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21:59:46 [yllona]
*hadn't h ad such a masssive crush
21:59:49 [BrianFreud]
lol
21:59:49 [lauri]
luks: what we need is a 'aka' status, that is somewhere between an alias and a performance name
22:00:16 [lauri]
because we use alias (as you say) to merge variant spellings of the _same_ name
22:00:16 [luks]
to replace them?
22:00:20 [lauri]
and performance names have credits
22:00:27 [BrianFreud]
perhaps. I just think the distinction is more than just the alias / merge that is proposed in those edits.
22:00:29 [lauri]
an aka would be 'madonna is also known as madonna louise ciccone'
22:00:30 [yllona]
BrianFreud: romeo blue was amazingly *bad, but lenny was such ahottie :P
22:00:40 [BrianFreud]
hehe
22:00:44 [lauri]
it's got no credits, it's in no need of what we currently use aliases for
22:01:03 [lauri]
if it got credits, hey, we change it's designation to performance name, wham, it gets a page, showing those credits
22:01:06 [lauri]
you see?
22:01:07 [BrianFreud]
We currently mostly use Aliases as search optimizations, not info sources
22:01:32 [lauri]
yes, why i suggest something different, because while these are in fact aliases as the world might understand them, that isn't how we use them
22:01:33 [luks]
NGS will link aliases to tracks/releases
22:01:33 [BrianFreud]
At least, that's how I only ever see anyone using them, or editing to add them
22:01:56 [lauri]
luks: so we could potentially have albums by AFX, A.F.X. both?
22:02:03 [luks]
yes
22:02:05 [lauri]
ouch
22:02:08 [lauri]
and fun!
22:02:33 [lauri]
and, imagine what fun can be had with the jefferson starship discography
22:02:45 [lauri]
(apropos of nothing, it just occurred to me :)
22:03:12 [yllona]
* yllona snickers at jefferson starship, and suggests that p-funk will be the ultimate test
22:03:35 [lauri]
well, i could bring up black uhuru again :)
22:03:43 [BrianFreud]
lol, sure to all
22:03:52 [BrianFreud]
so then these are bad merges, yes?
22:03:54 [lauri]
which i've done my best with, right now it's in stasis with an annotation, cos i have really no clue what to do next :)
22:04:04 [lauri]
BrianFreud: irrelevant
22:04:08 [BrianFreud]
it's not!
22:04:26 [lauri]
but in my future vision: not if they have no credits on them, they don't need their own entire pages, they just need to be displayed as aka's on the primary artist page
22:04:44 [lauri]
(i notice aphex twin has grown a birth date :)
22:04:55 [lauri]
think of all the duplication of birth dates alone we could save ourselvse
22:05:22 [BrianFreud]
I brought them up because in exactly the reasons described here, I see them as a bad idea, and not a series of edits that ought to continue. How, then, is this not also about those edits, and irrelevant to them?
22:05:51 [lauri]
because you want me to come out and say they are good edits today, so you can pick a fight with me again
22:06:10 [BrianFreud]
Lauri, why do you always think I'm trying to fight with you? I almost always agree with you.
22:06:13 [lauri]
and that's not relevant to my currently ongoing pie in the sky discussion of how we could render all the name issues irrelevant
22:07:06 [lauri]
then stop prodding me about those darn edits that i have already noted, i didn't vote yes to
22:07:52 [luks]
* luks is happy that all these dramas happen outside of his subscribed artists :)
22:07:59 [BrianFreud]
actually, I adressed the question to the channel, not you in particular :)
22:07:59 [yllona]
oh no! and we were doing so well for a few minutes
22:08:15 [lauri]
luks: did i lose you with my aka's tangent? that would effectively give you two levels of aliases (but one is for real actual aliases that have credits, and one is for other names that don't)
22:08:35 [lauri]
* lauri tries with all her might to drag this back
22:08:48 [yllona]
* yllona sends more virtual cocktails and chamomille tea to lauri & brian
22:08:55 [lauri]
i'll have the cocktails
22:08:59 [lauri]
he can have the tea
22:09:11 [luks]
the best solution I can think of is introducing a new entity 'person'
22:09:17 [yllona]
yes,,, the cocktails are for you. tea for brian ;)
22:09:23 [BrianFreud]
lol
22:09:54 [yllona]
BrianFreud: i actually do listen-- believe it or not :P
22:10:00 [lauri]
luks: we could go even further with this, and drill all the way down into band memberships too
22:10:00 [BrianFreud]
hehe
22:10:49 [lauri]
imagine going to paul mccartney's page and seeing 'releases as a member of the beatles' and 'releases as a member of wings' and solo releases, and any weird stuff he might have done in 1970 with a weird indian name, of which i can't think of any, but it's possible
22:11:28 [luks]
I see what you mean
22:11:43 [luks]
but I still think this is an implementation detail on top of the current structure
22:11:52 [lauri]
or bill leeb's
22:12:07 [lauri]
since you bought him up, that'd be a really fun one to see which albums from which side project came where in a timeline
22:14:08 [lauri]
ooooh
22:14:11 [lauri]
a timeline view
22:14:18 [lauri]
(but that's a whole 'nother thing)
22:14:24 [lauri]
wouldn't that be awesome though?
22:14:36 [luks]
for band membership?
22:14:48 [luks]
or any data in MB?
22:14:55 [Cord]
:-)
22:15:26 [Cord]
. o O ( it also would be nice to handle bandmembers who left the group for some time and came back.
22:15:28 [lauri]
evvvverything :)
22:15:35 [lauri]
and that :)
22:16:02 [luks]
MB seriously needs redesign
22:16:45 [lauri]
and 'what else got released this day/date/year'
22:16:49 [lauri]
and oh so much stuff
22:16:56 [lauri]
'what came out on my birthday'
22:17:01 [lauri]
and awards
22:17:06 [lauri]
i want to do awards!
22:17:15 [lauri]
can we have that please luks :)
22:17:22 [Cord]
* Cord gets the wishlist award.
22:17:30 [Cord]
ups.
22:17:35 [lauri]
certified gold, grammies, whatever :)
22:17:36 [Cord]
lauri gets the wishlist award.
22:18:03 [lauri]
c'mon, wouldn't that be nifty (and well, nobody could argue about it, once we had a list of what's acceptable awards and what's not :)
22:18:12 [lauri]
which woudl be the argument of the century, to start with
22:18:14 [luks]
hmm
22:18:26 [lauri]
but stuff like grammy awards are very well documented
22:18:55 [lauri]
gold/platinum/etc certs too, in most countries (I know i can pull a list of everything ever, from the swedish version of the RIAA)
22:18:56 [BrianFreud]
* BrianFreud would be afraid we'd step on legal toes... "On the Billboard top 50 for 1972"...
22:19:12 [luks]
so many cool ideas and soooo little time...
22:19:15 [lauri]
well, that'd be a non-acceptable award (it's not much of an award anyway, it's a chart placement)
22:19:37 [lauri]
but a rock björn for best non-scandinavian rock act
22:19:43 [lauri]
i know for sure that's not copyright :)
22:19:53 [lauri]
(it's completely useless to most of you, but i know i'd be allowed to add it :)
22:20:07 [yllona]
BrianFreud: billboard has affiliate agreements available -- something to be explored on the dread "business" side of things
22:20:55 [yllona]
luks: just keep up the fantastic work, it will all fall into place (eventually)
22:21:03 [BrianFreud]
* BrianFreud agrees :)
22:21:52 [yllona]
is there a wiki page to track feature suggestions?
22:22:23 [BrianFreud]
bugs: "enhancement request"
22:23:59 [yllona]
BrianFreud: can that be transposed to an easy-to-use wiki page for viewing?
22:24:10 [yllona]
so that dupes aren't entered
22:24:43 [yllona]
and then linked to the MB front page?
22:25:08 [BrianFreud]
I'm sure it could... ought to enter an enhancement request for it :D
22:25:17 [yllona]
BrianFreud: that's something you could do while half-asleep, i bet ;)
22:25:25 [BrianFreud]
yeah right
22:25:35 [BrianFreud]
my uberpowerful coding skillz
22:28:40 [yllona]
you can do it though, yes?
22:28:43 [gecks]
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22:29:15 [BrianFreud]
lol, code some way to get bug tickets to show as wikipages and on the front page? I'm afraid that might be a little beyond my abilities
22:30:03 [BrianFreud]
* BrianFreud sticks with chessboard display python programs :D
22:30:42 [yllona]
the front page would be a link to the wiki...
22:30:42 [lauri]
well, that surpasses my python abilities already
22:30:59 [lauri]
yllona: trac has an integrated wiki view, i don't know if we run it though, and i am too lazy to go look :)
22:31:31 [yllona]
uh, BrianFreud you game for the lookup?
22:31:32 [lauri]
in theory, some interwiki hackery might do the trick though, maybe dmppanda can do it with some funky backlinks
22:32:07 [yllona]
isn't it holiday time in Paris? or is that august? :P
22:33:16 [lauri]
else: http://bugs.musicbrainz.org/query?status=new&status=assigned&status=reopened&type=enhancement&order=priority
22:33:29 [lauri]
it is france
22:33:33 [lauri]
i think it's from now until about october
22:33:37 [BrianFreud]
lol
22:33:57 [BrianFreud]
well, july 14 for independance day, I don't remember any other holidays between now and then from the time I lived there
22:34:06 [lauri]
similar to sweden (where i tried to see what was on at the movie theaters this weekend, only to find all the ones in an hours drive of here are in fact closed for summer vacations)
22:34:22 [lauri]
it's summer, most of europe is currently closed
22:34:42 [lauri]
except turkey, the canary islands, southern greece, the spanish riviera
22:34:53 [lauri]
which is where you'll find all the swedes, germans and french
22:35:11 [yllona]
okay, that mean brian is in the batting cage :P
22:35:39 [BrianFreud]
* BrianFreud swings and misses
22:35:51 [BrianFreud]
* BrianFreud swings and misses again
22:36:01 [BrianFreud]
* BrianFreud swings and .... the might BrianFreud has struck out!
22:36:15 [yllona]
nope. you're not trying
22:36:26 [lauri]
me, i gotta do a remote kernel upgrade on the machine i am irc'ing from
22:36:32 [lauri]
i may be gone a while lol
22:36:47 [yllona]
catch ya later lauri, take care
22:36:55 [lauri]
(well, it's daughters primary msn machine, so for my own safety, this better work first try)
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22:50:03 [aCiD2]
Think I've -finally- got the mb data to import. Turns out my server didn't have enough harddrive space to do the temporary extraction
22:50:06 [ruaok]
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22:55:05 [BrianFreud]
ouch
22:55:21 [BrianFreud]
yeah FauxFaux said it took like 5 gb... more than I have free atm
23:02:21 [aCiD2]
Nope, ran out of space again
23:02:43 [aCiD2]
Looks like I'm gonna have to set the database up on my wardrobe gentoo server... that's gonna make the site really zippy :X
23:04:42 [FauxFaux]
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23:11:47 [aCiD2]
Anyway, bed time.. heh
23:11:52 [aCiD2]
I'll carry on this tomorrow
23:11:52 [aCiD2]
night
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23:59:38 [BrianFreud]
How would you guys title this release? http://www.mondemariahcarey.net/imgs/discographie/2wyb.jpg