IRC log of musicbrainz on 2003-12-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

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01:46:57 [ruaok]
Check out what just arrived in my mailbox:
01:46:58 [ruaok]
http://mayhem-chaos.net/photoblog/images/helix_check.jpg
01:49:41 [real]
nice
02:05:02 [orogor]
huh , not sure sure i read very well
02:05:51 [orogor]
12 500 $ ?
02:24:05 [taaz]
wow, that great!
02:24:12 [taaz]
that's too
02:24:53 [taaz]
so MusicBrainz is official enough to write checks to?
02:26:08 [real]
i say we break that check among us 13*
02:28:39 [ruaok]
taaz: actually its not -- its a mistake. We're not incorporated yet...
02:28:59 [ruaok]
* ruaok is away: dinner
03:05:09 [taaz]
looking a bit more into that AdvancedRelationships wiki node...
03:05:39 [taaz]
looks like most of that could map well to RDF
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03:07:03 [taaz]
should probably follow the subject verb object pattern rdf and other semantic systems use
03:07:40 [taaz]
not sure how that stuff maps to db schemas though
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03:38:38 [Knio]
ooh ooh money ?
03:39:12 [Knio]
nice
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10:42:29 [stuntzi]
hi *
10:43:58 [stuntzi]
is there any way to make the file tagger/renamer preserve the last-modified-date? if not, should this be imlemented? or is it completely stupid?
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16:00:01 [alus]
hm
16:00:12 [alus]
well he signed off
16:00:17 [alus]
but I think it's a weird idea.
16:00:29 [alus]
I just can't think of a reason to do it
16:04:49 [yalaforge]
wow. 7478 open mods
16:47:09 [taaz]
i don't understand how anyone can go through that and find things they know enough to moderate
16:47:32 [yalaforge]
to vote for, you mean?
16:49:08 [taaz]
whatever it's called
16:49:34 [yalaforge]
well, I usually vote for anything that looks right on add album mods
16:50:12 [yalaforge]
if there's someone who knows better he/she can fix it. at least the entered data isn't lost that way
17:33:18 [RJ]
what we need is a way to show the right mods to the right people
17:33:23 [RJ]
people who know the music in question
17:33:36 [RJ]
...perhaps the voting system should be exposed by the webservice :)
17:33:43 [yalaforge]
well, you can already subscribe to an artist
17:33:57 [yalaforge]
but a webservice would be cool, that's right :-)
17:33:59 [RJ]
is that available over the w/s ?
17:34:01 [RJ]
ah, yes
17:34:16 [RJ]
so i can show any pending votes on artist pages @ audioscrobbler
17:34:17 [yalaforge]
nope, it isn't.
17:34:49 [yalaforge]
could you please enter a bug report for this?
17:35:01 [yalaforge]
like that we won't forget it
17:35:18 [RJ]
bug reporting on SF?
17:35:30 [yalaforge]
yup
17:35:50 [RJ]
is it a bug or a RFE ?
17:36:13 [yalaforge]
a RFE, I'd say
17:36:29 [yalaforge]
but that's philosophy ;-)
17:36:35 [RJ]
heh, RFE i reckon
17:42:53 [ruaok]
* ruaok is back (gone 15:13:53)
17:42:58 [ruaok]
* ruaok yawns
17:43:08 [yalaforge]
good morning
17:43:13 [ruaok]
More than 7000 open mods. Eeeek.
17:43:16 [RJ]
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=861129&group_id=19506&atid=369506
17:43:16 [ruaok]
Morning!
17:43:18 [RJ]
hi
17:43:32 [yalaforge]
and problems on mb-users
17:43:44 [yalaforge]
RJ: thanks!
17:43:46 [ruaok]
yup. Caught both of those.
17:44:04 [RJ]
i'll happily be a test case when the webservice exposes that data :)
17:44:05 [yalaforge]
I'm currently going through *all* of his mods, fixing and voting
17:44:16 [ruaok]
yalaforge: thanks. :-)
17:44:27 [yalaforge]
I've been working on this since the message got in
17:45:03 [yalaforge]
one and a half hour. ugh
17:45:12 [ruaok]
I was going to start my grant work today, but maybe I'll work on some 'reduce open moderation tasks' instead.
17:45:29 [ruaok]
* ruaok reads the summit notes again.
17:45:49 [yalaforge]
ruaok: I'm going to do some manual open moderation work till I leave town
17:46:26 [ruaok]
cool.
17:49:14 [KyleB]
Im writing a pretty simply python script to remove duplicate songs based on song ids written to the id3 v2 tag... think anyone else might be interested in it?
17:49:54 [ruaok]
I'm planning on adding that feature to the tagger pretty soon, but I think non-windows people might enjoy that as well.
17:49:58 [yalaforge]
KyleB: my collection is pretty clean already. but you could add it to the software page on the wiki
17:50:22 [KyleB]
my collection is so not clean :-P
17:50:35 [KyleB]
meta data is starting to get pretty good thx to MB though
17:53:25 [yalaforge]
* yalaforge is away: food
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18:16:02 [yalaforge]
* yalaforge is back (gone 00:22:37)
18:51:32 [ruaok]
dude. posting storm in mb-users.
18:51:42 [yalaforge]
ok, I voted for all of his mods
18:51:52 [ruaok]
you rock yalaforge !
18:51:53 [yalaforge]
generated about 400 mods for me
18:52:07 [ruaok]
Not a bad deal. :-)
18:52:16 [yalaforge]
it would be better if you tell him. in case you want him to stay a MB user *argh*
18:56:14 [yalaforge]
* yalaforge is away: I'm busy
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19:22:38 [Rubin]
so, is "TRM" proprietary technology?
19:22:48 [yalaforge]
Rubin: yes
19:22:53 [yalaforge]
* yalaforge is back (gone 00:26:39)
19:23:13 [Rubin]
so then, you are all contributing to a database which reliatable.com has full control over?
19:23:34 [yalaforge]
no
19:23:36 [Rubin]
i see the song and rating data is open.. but without the trm id what good is it?
19:23:59 [yalaforge]
you can still use the CDIndexIds to rip CDs
19:24:19 [yalaforge]
that's the featureset of freedb, BTW
19:24:28 [Rubin]
right
19:24:37 [lauri]
and if the trm generator code is gpl'ed, how can trm itself be proprietary (what's to stop someone setting up say, a trm plugin to freedb, and augmenting the freedb data, or starting an entirely new database?)
19:24:57 [yalaforge]
and we get a naming scheme for artists, tracks and titles
19:25:22 [Rubin]
the part of musicbrainz thats new and cool is the ability for it to figure out what an mp3 is automagically.. and thats the part that is not open
19:25:42 [yalaforge]
lauri: raw audio data is sent to a special signature server which returns the TRM
19:26:22 [lauri]
except when it's not (I can perfectly well compile trm on my own machine, generate a fingerprint myself, here, no?)
19:26:34 [yalaforge]
Rubin: so if you're an audio hacker and have knowledge about things like FFT, speech recognition theory and stuff, what are you waiting for? ;-)
19:26:51 [ruaok]
lauri: no you can't generate a TRM locally.
19:27:00 [ruaok]
It still needs to talk to the server, which is closed source.
19:27:05 [Rubin]
yalaforge: (:
19:27:11 [ruaok]
But TRMs are only used as a lookup crutch.
19:27:15 [lauri]
trm
19:27:15 [lauri]
usage: trm [-m|-o|-w|-l|-d] <mp3 | ogg/vorbis | wav file>
19:27:18 [lauri]
apparently, I can
19:27:26 [ruaok]
Once something has been lookup the TRM is no longer user.
19:27:38 [Rubin]
it seems to me, that a project which opens large uninteresting parts of itself, but closes the good stuff, is just about as closed as, say, a totally closed source project
19:27:41 [ruaok]
lauri: sure you can. Disconnect your net connection and see how well it works.
19:27:49 [yalaforge]
lauri: see http://www.musicbrainz.org/docs/20031108-2.html
19:27:59 [ruaok]
Rubin: if that is your take on MB, then so be it.
19:28:03 [lauri]
that's what we're trying to establish
19:28:03 [yalaforge]
http://www.musicbrainz.org/docs/20031108-1.html
19:28:13 [yalaforge]
"we"?
19:28:20 [lauri]
me, and Rubin
19:28:48 [Rubin]
we were browsing the site trying to figure out if there was a catch ;)
19:29:00 [yalaforge]
cool. do you have a website that explains your project or did you just come here to flame?
19:29:02 [ruaok]
Well, I'm sorry that it is not as open as you want it to be.
19:29:13 [lauri]
(and both of us are involved in different audio projects, one of which already implements musicbrainz lookups, which is why one of us suggested it to the other as an idea for their software, and then discover extremely confusing info on the website :)
19:29:20 [lauri]
so, we're here, to unconfuse ourselves
19:29:23 [ruaok]
We're pragmatic, and trying to make something work.
19:29:51 [yalaforge]
I see the whole tagger stuff just as an aid to get meta data from the people
19:30:19 [Rubin]
anyway. its still neat, and usefull. just not open which is dissapointing
19:30:22 [yalaforge]
if someone comes up with a free alternative to TRM, I bet we'd support that
19:30:27 [Rubin]
ya
19:30:29 [lauri]
seriously?
19:30:33 [ruaok]
Of course.
19:30:49 [ruaok]
We'd prefer to use open software.
19:30:54 [Rubin]
* Rubin suspects the task of converting a million TRM tags to the open version would be daunting
19:31:01 [ruaok]
I keep bugging sward_3 to open source the TRM variant we have. :-)
19:31:23 [lauri]
ok, so basically the trm generator we are using, generates only part of the data, and sends that to the trm server for further processing?
19:31:26 [ruaok]
Well, we have a system that mostly works.
19:31:33 [ruaok]
lauri: yes.
19:31:48 [lauri]
but since that part, is already gpl, we would be within our rights to take that part, and reverse engineer the 'further processing' part?
19:32:08 [Rubin]
did relatable pattent it?
19:32:09 [ruaok]
lauri: sure
19:32:16 [ruaok]
Rubin: not sure.
19:32:25 [ruaok]
sward_3: did you guys ever get a patent on TRM?
19:32:29 [yalaforge]
just one thing I'd like to mention: I don't speak for MB, I just speak for myself
19:32:43 [ruaok]
lauri: you good with multidimensional clustering algorithms?
19:32:55 [Rubin]
ruaok: oh yeah, she does them in her sleep :P
19:33:00 [lauri]
damn straight
19:33:10 [lauri]
(not personally, although, you'd be rather surprised what i'm good with :)
19:33:21 [ruaok]
well, let me tell you that the 'missing parts' are not quite trivial.
19:33:25 [ruaok]
Hence no open solutions yet.
19:33:35 [ruaok]
And really, the key to MB is not the TRM stuff.
19:33:42 [Rubin]
its not?
19:33:53 [ruaok]
The MBID in the data, the data itself and the community are the key aspects.
19:34:06 [lauri]
well, we put musicbrainz lookups into our app more as a 'oooh cool' thing than anything else, but now, I'm kinda fond of it
19:34:13 [ruaok]
digital fingerprints are lookup crutches.
19:34:23 [ruaok]
cool.
19:34:39 [lauri]
what i don't want to have happen, is get burnt the way cddb burnt the community
19:34:44 [yalaforge]
* yalaforge doesn't use the tagger at all and he did >25000 mods
19:34:52 [Rubin]
i would say its more of a "car" than a crutch
19:35:06 [Rubin]
its impossible to properly look up and tag a collection of hundreds of thousands of songs
19:35:08 [ruaok]
lauri: and that is why we're going to incorporate a non-profit in jan.
19:35:09 [Rubin]
but with TRM it would be..
19:35:10 [lauri]
well, since the tagger doesn't run on my platforms of choice, trust me, I don't use it either :)
19:35:54 [yalaforge]
lauri: well, there's a pretty good cross-platform library that encapsulates most requrired features
19:35:55 [ruaok]
Yeay. We got another $50 towards more RAM for the server.
19:36:04 [Rubin]
the 2nd best thing right now is music-match's tag lookup tool
19:36:13 [yalaforge]
ruaok: cool. That adds to the $200 from Neil
19:36:27 [ruaok]
yalaforge: yup. $250 and I'm willing to chip in $100.
19:36:34 [lauri]
yalaforge: and we have a pretty darn good tagger ourselves, so that's ok :)
19:36:57 [yalaforge]
oh hell. I'll give another 50 EUR in January, ok?
19:37:16 [ruaok]
Yeah! THanks yalaforge
19:37:18 [yalaforge]
lauri: link, please
19:37:19 [lauri]
(one that's about to get very large distribution in ~a month, as part of a larger project, but it's been available and getting good reviews for a while now)
19:37:34 [yalaforge]
ruaok: but remind me of that, or I'll forget it over xmas
19:37:40 [ruaok]
ok
19:38:01 [Rubin]
yalaforge: check out ampache.org if your curious what i'm working on
19:38:34 [yalaforge]
php? uh
19:38:40 [lauri]
yalaforge: http://www.slackorama.net/cgi-bin/content.pl?juk (about to be released as part of a default KDE distribution in January)
19:39:06 [yalaforge]
ah yes, never got it to compile. I remember
19:39:10 [ruaok]
juk. Ahh, yes.
19:39:16 [ruaok]
me neither.
19:39:48 [lauri]
heh, well, yell at your distributions (or find one with a nicer packager (that's one of my other hats))
19:41:15 [yalaforge]
hm. I don't see the need for a tagger for myself right now. All I rip gets the full MB-Identifiers
19:42:37 [lauri]
well, me either, but we're not the target audience (in any case, the tagging features are secondary to the playlisting stuff)
19:50:02 [orogor]
i got juk compiling with gentoo
19:50:38 [yalaforge]
orogor: cool. how did you like it?
19:51:31 [orogor]
it s fine
19:51:46 [orogor]
it s the app i use to listen to mp3 while running gentoo
19:51:56 [yalaforge]
* yalaforge uses rhythmbox
19:52:28 [yalaforge]
probably the best jukebox around. the source code is pretty clean, they put a lot of work into it
19:52:34 [lauri]
they're practically twins (heck, developers of both have code in the other)
19:52:49 [orogor]
juk looks a bit like rhythmbox
19:53:06 [orogor]
but the artist album thingy are on the left side
19:53:41 [orogor]
and there s no rating play count or last lisent
19:53:54 [orogor]
but it s quite a good tool to edit tags
19:54:08 [yalaforge]
no rating? uh. that's why I switched from xmms
19:54:18 [yalaforge]
id3v2?
19:54:36 [orogor]
not sure if it s V1 or V2
19:54:38 [lauri]
and ogg (and flac too)
19:54:46 [orogor]
i rarely use very long artist names or so
19:55:09 [yalaforge]
lauri: is it id3v2?
19:55:11 [lauri]
although, it won't play flac (wasn't ready for the freeze)
19:55:13 [lauri]
yes it's id3v2
19:55:33 [ruaok]
* ruaok is away: writing code
19:55:40 [yalaforge]
* yalaforge hates id3v2
19:55:56 [yalaforge]
it's awfully complicated, and badly designed
19:56:43 [yalaforge]
I wish there was an RDF based solution that removes all the ambiguity and the many problems id3v2 has
19:57:17 [icepick-away]
icepick-away is now known as icepick
19:57:46 [orogor]
let s wait , the perfect solution wil apear one day
19:57:56 [yalaforge]
orogor: I hope you're right
19:58:50 [yalaforge]
perhaps we should just store everything as MB_ID.mp3 and use an external RDF model get the other metadata
19:59:02 [yalaforge]
people would *love* it *eg*
19:59:26 [KyleB]
lol
19:59:32 [KyleB]
that has to be the worst solution ever
19:59:51 [yalaforge]
KyleB: well, it's the database approach
20:00:15 [yalaforge]
it removes all the redundancy and provides the possibility for cheap metadata upgrades from musicbrainz
20:00:17 [KyleB]
yalaforge, rhythmbox is headed by colin walters, who happens to be a friend of mine (we both go to Ohio State)
20:00:35 [yalaforge]
KyleB: cool. Say him many thanks for this great program!
20:00:54 [KyleB]
he and I have been talking about adding MB support, problem is I know about 0 gtk
20:01:01 [yalaforge]
if he ever needs help with mb integration, he's very welcome here
20:01:18 [yalaforge]
KyleB: did you try the gtk tutorial? it's pretty good
20:01:53 [KyleB]
I've looked over the first two or three "lessons" or whatever they're called
20:02:26 [yalaforge]
I'm afraid you'll also have a look at how their object model works. it's pretty complicated at first sight
20:02:43 [KyleB]
yeah.. Im more a c++ guy than a c guy
20:03:23 [yalaforge]
hm, if you don't want to integrate it *too* closely you could use the c++ bindings and use corba to embed it
20:03:54 [yalaforge]
I heard the bonobo stuff is pretty stable and much faster than the KDE thing
20:04:07 [KyleB]
do you have any thoughts on the best way to integrate MB to rhythmbox?
20:04:32 [yalaforge]
hm, I'm not really sure. perhaps an external component would be best
20:04:33 [KyleB]
we even discussed just doing a seperate app that rhythmbox could talk to and send files for it to tag
20:04:40 [KyleB]
heh, yeah
20:05:04 [yalaforge]
if you wrote corba bindings, other programs could use it as well
20:05:14 [lauri]
lauri has left #musicbrainz
20:05:19 [yalaforge]
that's the way things are done nowadays, I heard ;-)
20:05:52 [KyleB]
yeah, I wonder how the intergration with helix is going to work
20:06:15 [yalaforge]
I don't know but better don't ask at the moment. the boss is writing code ;-)
20:06:37 [KyleB]
yeah
20:11:14 [ruaok]
* ruaok is back (gone 00:15:42)
20:11:19 [ruaok]
I heard that! :-)
20:11:40 [ruaok]
KyleB: check out the actual grant proposal for how the integration will work.
20:11:59 [yalaforge]
:-)
20:12:05 [ruaok]
in essence, the helix client will generate a TRM id and pass it up to the player core.
20:12:29 [KyleB]
k
20:12:31 [ruaok]
The player core will launch an external python base tagging application with the filename and trm id as the arguments.
20:12:57 [ruaok]
I'm hoping to make the external python tagger generic enough to allow it to be plugged into all sorts of players.
20:12:57 [yalaforge]
which is fine in this case, but the gtk people most probably want a corba component ;-)
20:13:30 [KyleB]
yeah
20:13:31 [ruaok]
corba. Ahh, yes. Old, outdated and underutilized technology. And complicated to boot.
20:13:42 [ruaok]
anyways. back to hiding for me. :-)
20:13:45 [yalaforge]
hey, nothing against corba. it's the best we got
20:13:46 [ruaok]
* ruaok is away: hacking
21:13:18 [Rubin]
Rubin has left #MusicBrainz
21:54:13 [ruaok]
* ruaok is back (gone 01:40:27)
21:54:19 [ruaok]
yalaforge: check out this page:
21:54:20 [ruaok]
http://test.musicbrainz.org/showartist.html?artistid=71108
21:54:33 [ruaok]
which moderations get loaded is hard coded ATM.
21:54:36 [yalaforge]
loading ...
21:54:49 [ruaok]
That is the next thing after I go for a bike ride to get some excercise.
21:55:49 [canidae]
yay... you people are both geeks *and* you excercise? i'm impressed... thought that was against the laws of physics
21:56:15 [yalaforge]
ruaok: what am I supposed to see on this page? do I have to log in?
21:56:22 [ruaok]
heh. I excercise a lot. That's one of the things I'm truly addicted to..
21:56:29 [ruaok]
yes, you need to log in. Sorry.
21:56:32 [yalaforge]
* yalaforge is probably a bit tired
21:56:35 [ruaok]
create an account.
21:56:47 [ruaok]
I didn't import moderations or accounts.
21:56:54 [ruaok]
I'll do that later today.
21:56:59 [yalaforge]
ah, that's why it didn't work
21:57:12 [ruaok]
yeah, it makes no sense to show something to someone who isn't logged in.
21:58:52 [yalaforge]
ah, logged in.
21:59:09 [yalaforge]
hey, cool.
21:59:24 [yalaforge]
in which way is it supposed to be related?
22:00:16 [ruaok]
Its not. :-)
22:00:31 [yalaforge]
then I think that's the best about it :-)
22:00:33 [ruaok]
Like i said its hard coded and I need to implement the 'related' part
22:00:39 [KyleB]
it must be nice being able to bike in december
22:00:52 [KyleB]
in ohio after mid november, you pretty have to ride stationary bikes
22:00:56 [ruaok]
KyleB: in shorts nonetheless.
22:01:26 [KyleB]
damn you people in the southwest
22:01:33 [ruaok]
:-)
22:01:43 [ruaok]
ok, I'm off for said bike ride.
22:01:49 [yalaforge]
ok, and I'm off, too
22:01:52 [ruaok]
* ruaok is away: bike-a-moo!
22:01:54 [ruaok]
nite!
22:01:54 [yalaforge]
have fun and good night!
22:01:55 [KyleB]
* KyleB goes back to gdb
22:02:00 [yalaforge]
yalaforge has quit ("Client exiting")
22:07:52 [RJ]
RJ has quit (Remote closed the connection)
22:37:04 [Knio-school]
Knio-school is now known as Knio
23:17:14 [KyleB]
KyleB has quit (Remote closed the connection)
23:28:04 [soccos]
soccos (~paul@psharpe2-egw.access.nethere.net) has joined #musicbrainz
23:28:17 [soccos]
how does a moderator become an automoderator?
23:29:08 [ruaok]
http://musicbrainz.org/mod_intro.html
23:29:14 [ruaok]
read the auto moderator section.
23:29:46 [soccos]
I was reading the wiki moderation faq
23:30:09 [soccos]
which refers to the question but doesn't provide the answer
23:32:50 [soccos]
which "auto moderator section" are you talking about?
23:33:44 [soccos]
hmm
23:33:46 [soccos]
I see
23:34:17 [soccos]
this info is way to fragmented
23:34:24 [soccos]
can't we just put it all in the wiki
23:42:01 [soccos]
I made a link to the Moderation Introduction from the wiki moderation faq fttb