IRC log of musicbrainz on 2012-05-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:05:49 [Synergist]

Synergist has joined #musicbrainz

00:05:49 [Synergist]

Synergist has joined #musicbrainz

00:07:14 [derwin]

anoia : fyi, you can also use "beets" which may be better suited for large collections

00:07:20 [derwin]

if you are comfortable on the command line

00:07:42 [derwin]

(I say this as someone who does not use picard but understand it to be oriented around tagging of single items, which may be innacurate :D)

00:07:58 [ianmcorvidae]

it's oriented to tagging whole albums

00:08:07 [ianmcorvidae]

but it's assuming you have partial metadata, generally

00:13:24 [Anoia]

yeah, the metadata is mostly there for this collecion

00:13:51 [Anoia]

it's doing ok atm

00:14:15 [Anoia]

it just need soem manual coersion at times

00:33:54 [VxJasonxV]

Any Diablo 3 players in here? /msg me some Battle Tags!

00:36:03 [kepstin]

* kepstin does some more scanning.

00:39:47 [kepstin]

scanning a booklet with some semi-transparent pages is a bit interesting.

00:41:42 [ianmcorvidae]

heh

00:41:49 [ianmcorvidae]

perhaps stick a sheet of white paper between the pages?

00:42:09 [ianmcorvidae]

though I guess maybe you want to see through them

00:42:09 [ianmcorvidae]

heh

00:54:43 [kepstin]

the pages are designed to make neat designs when you see through one to the next

00:54:52 [kepstin]

so I have to scan them together

00:54:56 [ianmcorvidae]

ah

00:54:59 [kepstin]

http://musicbrainz.org/release/4c8c7abf-2c25-325b-89e6-4af7e9716d97/cover-art

00:57:59 [kepstin]

(this is probably the one of the very few releases I'll ever do with a separate spine image.

00:58:03 [kepstin]

)

00:58:30 [kepstin]

the binding on this case simply doesn't open flat, so I couldn't scan it together.

01:09:23 [brianfreud]

* brianfreud hopes someone comes up with some better primary type for live bootlegs, other than "album", which it isn't

01:10:23 [ianmcorvidae]

presumably 'other'

01:10:42 [pankkake]

why is Live not a primary type? :p

01:10:55 [ianmcorvidae]

because you want to have it alongside other things

01:10:56 [brianfreud]

That makes the old typical use of Other for bootlegs useless

01:10:59 [ianmcorvidae]

e.g. for live albums

01:11:04 [brianfreud]

ie, studio demos, etc - all non-live stuff

01:13:59 [ianmcorvidae]

it's possible that types need to be added; if it's not an album, EP, or single (don't know how Audiobook ended up in the primary types column, I yelled at ocharles about that...) it should be set to Other

01:14:21 [brianfreud]

* brianfreud thinks we need "Concert"

01:14:46 [ianmcorvidae]

certainly not as a primary type; possibly as a secondary

01:14:48 [brianfreud]

Otherwise, as mentioned, all concert and non-concert bootlegs end up mashed together...

01:15:17 [brianfreud]

Also, it looks like every single "live" became "album+live". That's a huge number of releases to have to fix manually. :(

01:16:30 [ianmcorvidae]

well, that's the default assumption that you can make from one type

01:16:53 [brianfreud]

except it's wrong in most cases. :(

01:17:46 [brianfreud]

I'd rather a null primary and secondary type value had been used, rather than making assumptions. At least then it'd be clear what needed fixing, rather than this mess.

01:19:21 [ianmcorvidae]

indiscriminately removing information isn't a migration strategy

01:19:57 [brianfreud]

that wouldn't be removing anything.

01:20:23 [ianmcorvidae]

live -> (null, null)

01:20:30 [brianfreud]

we had one value. now there are 2 values. Migrate the 1 known value to the applicable one of the 2 new values.

01:20:35 [brianfreud]

live -> (null, live)

01:20:45 [brianfreud]

not live -> (album, live)

01:20:45 [ianmcorvidae]

"a null primary and secondary type value"

01:21:01 [brianfreud]

I meant whichever was applicable, not both at the same time.

01:23:35 [brianfreud]

The way it was done, though, just invented info w/o any basis for it.

01:25:22 [ianmcorvidae]

incidentally, I don't agree with a bootleg not being an album -- but there isn't style on this (yet)

01:25:42 [brianfreud]

look at the mess it made here: http://musicbrainz.org/artist/5b11f4ce-a62d-471e-81fc-a69a8278c7da

01:26:09 [kepstin]

brianfreud: it made a mess everywhere.

01:26:14 [brianfreud]

in the old way, I could easily see the Nirvana albums all together. It was a short list.

01:26:25 [kepstin]

part of the fix is simply going to be updating the /user interface/.

01:26:28 [ianmcorvidae]

yes, the display sucks

01:26:33 [brianfreud]

Now, compilations are somehow also albums, anything live is album, and the listing is a disaster.

01:26:43 [ianmcorvidae]

completely different problem

01:26:54 [brianfreud]

that's part of it, yes - but why then was it implemented without a display patch?

01:27:05 [kepstin]

brianfreud: in order to make the schema change deadline

01:27:06 [brianfreud]

this just makes the data nearly unbrowsable

01:27:07 [ianmcorvidae]

because schema changes happen on deadlines

01:27:35 [brianfreud]

tbh, I would much rather have seen it slip to the next schema change deadline then

01:28:10 [kepstin]

it's somewhat of a tradition for musicbrainz to update the data model then spend the next 6 months cleaning up the ui to make it usable :/

01:28:12 [ianmcorvidae]

the choice was delay the entire feature six months, or have it display poorly for two weeks

01:28:18 [ianmcorvidae]

or for however long

01:28:39 [ianmcorvidae]

honestly, it would have sucked at the next schema change anyway, because people don't really test things until they're on production

01:28:52 [ianmcorvidae]

which is where the 'tradition' kepstin cites comes from

01:28:59 [brianfreud]

there would at least have been something.

01:28:59 [ianmcorvidae]

there's some improvement that can be made there, of course, but

01:29:10 [brianfreud]

and I know this was not on test; I was on there yesterday and didn't see this.

01:29:17 [ianmcorvidae]

no, there would have been just about as shitty as this, but six months later

01:29:20 [ianmcorvidae]

this was on test

01:29:48 [brianfreud]

guaranteed it was not.

01:30:08 [brianfreud]

I have been working on a script for the past week+, and have been refreshing constantly on test all week

01:30:10 [brianfreud]

this was not there.

01:30:32 [ianmcorvidae]

because everything was on test some time ago

01:31:07 [kepstin]

brianfreud: this change was certainly on test for a while, we've been complaining about it here for almost a week now :/

01:31:17 [brianfreud]

so test yesterday != the most recent, about to hit tomorrow (today), version?

01:31:20 [brianfreud]

that makes no sense :P

01:31:37 [ianmcorvidae]

it was merged into the branch that was running on test on May 11

01:31:50 [ianmcorvidae]

*and* it was tested by multiple people in the past few days :P

01:31:53 [brianfreud]

* brianfreud checks github

01:32:40 [brianfreud]

well, I can guarantee it wasn't runnning on test between May 9 and late yesterday night; https://github.com/brianfreud/greasemonkey-batchCAA/commits/master

01:33:32 [kepstin]

except that it was. Are you sure you weren't looking at beta instead of test?

01:33:39 [kepstin]

(beta can't do schema change releases)

01:35:03 [ianmcorvidae]

since it was absolutely running on test, by testament of literally everyone but you, the git commit history, and by multiple chatlog references to what was running on test, I'm guessing beta

01:35:10 [ianmcorvidae]

and/or that you don't know much about your own code

01:35:47 [ianmcorvidae]

or you're using the webservice, which wouldn't have changed due to this at any point, including now :P

01:35:50 [brianfreud]

* brianfreud tries to not be offended by that statement

01:37:12 [brianfreud]

Also, given that it's a userscript, it has to run in a browser, thus my looking at the page as rendered by test, and the @include is quite clearly "http://test.musicbrainz.org/artist/*"

01:38:40 [brianfreud]

Oh well, it happened, whether it was on test or not.

01:39:00 [brianfreud]

but God, what a mess

01:43:00 [pankkake]

nikki: http://www.discogs.com/release/292916 a good example of discogs "not on label" mess

01:44:32 [kepstin]

huh, I was wondering how they did 'not on label' for multi-artist releases

01:44:35 [kepstin]

now I know...

01:50:07 [kepstin]

http://musicbrainz.org/release/4c8c7abf-2c25-325b-89e6-4af7e9716d97/cover-art - yey, one more release down!

01:50:35 [kepstin]

* kepstin seems to average scanning one release per night; it's quite a tedious process - especially with non-standard cases like this :/

01:51:53 [kepstin]

scanning at 2400dpi to workaround the stupid filtering that my scanner does certainly makes the 12gb ram in this computer actually useful, tho...

01:55:35 [kepstin]

* kepstin wonders why archive.org hasn't generated thumbnails for that yet

01:56:58 [pankkake]

you're uploading the 2400dpi images? :)

01:57:09 [ianmcorvidae]

thumbnailing might take more time, since evidently they *have* upped the quality

01:57:12 [kepstin]

of course not, that would be stupid

01:57:22 [kepstin]

i'm filtering them and downscaling to 300dpi

01:57:43 [pankkake]

I do the same… but with 600=>300 dpi

01:57:52 [pankkake]

maybe I should try to scan at more…

01:58:00 [kepstin]

yeah, I found that with 600dpi on this scanner, it puts in jpeg artifacts all over everything

01:58:16 [kepstin]

600dpi is generally high enough unless you have an annoying scanner

01:58:52 [kepstin]

(it's a wireless all-in-one printer/scanner, so it compresses the scanned images as jpeg before sending them to the computer)

01:59:03 [pankkake]

oh

01:59:09 [pankkake]

how stupid is that :/

01:59:29 [kepstin]

I should try it on usb some time to see if it's any better like that

01:59:43 [kepstin]

but I don't have a cable that reaches.

02:01:34 [brianfreud]

pankkake, whenever I've compared, I found that I got cleaner jpgs with native 300 dpi scans, vs downscaled 600->300 dpi scans

02:01:53 [brianfreud]

* brianfreud sees http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/?title=Style/Classical/Release/Artist and cries

02:03:45 [brianfreud]

The disambig, multiple artist, and AC fields are being so, imho misused, without any way provided to still get that same data that used to be there... MB's data is becoming more and more useless for me with each change.

02:04:09 [JoeLlama]

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02:09:10 [hawke_1]

brianfreud: see: "works" :-p

02:09:59 [brianfreud]

hawke_1, great in theory. Yet the decision was made to not auto-create works, nor to link them to recordings.

02:10:32 [hawke_1]

brianfreud: Thank god. See the mess that already exists for duplicate works to the extent that they were auto-created.

02:10:49 [brianfreud]

So the coverage for classical is very low, esp for a change which makes you dependant upon those works and links existing if you still just want the composer.

02:11:55 [hawke_1]

It is no lower than it was before, given that the works were auto-created from the composer AR

02:12:02 [brianfreud]

I also think it's rather unhelpful to preserve the "as on the cover" in listings for classical composers, esp when editors change the RG but forget about the release. http://musicbrainz.org/release-group/e7160844-7b0b-34ff-b109-33bcf58583dd

02:12:35 [brianfreud]

hawke_1, except before, you could assume that anything by Mozart would have artist "Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart".

02:12:43 [brianfreud]

Now you get "Weber, Mozart; Jörg Faerber, Württemberg Chamber Orchestra, George Zukerman"

02:13:44 [hawke_1]

Indeed.

02:14:01 [brianfreud]

I can only imagine the artist that someone might give to the 250 CD Mozart box set that took me weeks to enter.

02:14:45 [hawke_1]

Is that even editable currently?

02:15:01 [brianfreud]

should be, with the latest patch to fix such things

02:15:06 [brianfreud]

the RG definitely would be editable

02:15:26 [brianfreud]

These changes all apply pop-music-logic to things which don't follow that type of logic - classical, opera, theater, production music, film scores, ballet...

02:17:12 [hawke_1]

It’s not about pop music vs. classical, it’s about the fact that MB is primarily about cataloging releases, and it’s even more free to do so now that we have works and recordings to catalog those independently of the releases

02:17:15 [brianfreud]

And worse, they seem to have focused people on changing artists, yet taking focus off of ARs, which is where such granularity should be.

02:17:58 [brianfreud]

hawke_1, So make recordings, RGs, releases, etc all use the same concept as works.

02:18:16 [brianfreud]

"Artist" was always a meaningless field to which we gave meaning depending upon the type of release.

02:18:42 [brianfreud]

If we're going to mix everyone into it anyhow, just get rid of the "artist" field and use ARs.

02:18:47 [hawke_1]

It doesn’t work for releases or RGs though

02:19:02 [hawke_1]

because they actually use those meaningless fields as exactly that

02:19:03 [brianfreud]

How so?

02:19:16 [brianfreud]

Now they do, yes.

02:19:22 [hawke_1]

I mean actual releases do

02:19:44 [brianfreud]

Before, for composer as artist releases - classical, opera, theater, production music, film scores, ballet - that field was defined to mean "composer".

02:20:02 [brianfreud]

For anything else (pop, rock, etc), it was defined as "performer".

02:20:34 [hawke_1]

except that’s not what the actual releases do

02:20:43 [hawke_1]

they just slap some names on and call it good

02:20:46 [brianfreud]

Now, the latter is still true, but the composer-as-artist concept is thrown away without a realistic way to still get that info

02:21:27 [brianfreud]

Assuming that everything classical magically now has works attached, so the "composer" is still accessible, is not what I'd call realistic.

02:22:20 [brianfreud]

Re the private convos you and I have had re theatre and soundtracks, this is yet a third way the field is being treated.

02:24:34 [hawke_1]

I would say that always using the composer does not accurately reflect the release, so in my book this is a step forward.

02:25:31 [brianfreud]

And for those who disagree, how are we to still get the same composer info?

02:25:44 [brianfreud]

At the recording level, assuming a work exists, you can still get composer via the work's AR.

02:26:08 [brianfreud]

But at the release or RG level, there is no such concept.

02:28:13 [brianfreud]

Consider that the default in Picard is "$if2(%albumartist%,%artist%)/". Madonna is still Madonna, and Pearl Jam is still Pearl Jam. But "Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart" is now split among n directories, where n is, essentially, equivalent to the number of releases you tag.

02:29:46 [hawke_1]

That’s dependent on how you store your music though.

02:29:57 [brianfreud]

MB is not a tagger db. I've always been the first to say that. But MB still does serve a tagging role, and these changes seem to forget about any utility of the data outside of MB, tagging role included. They definitely make using MB as a tag source for classical (or any other composer-as-artist genres) far less usable.

02:30:38 [hawke_1]

It’s just fine for tagging classical, IMO. Though yes, it does require rethinking your directory structure.

02:30:47 [brianfreud]

"rethinking"?

02:31:15 [hawke_1]

Well, I mean, what if I want to collect all the releases where the Boston Pops performed?

02:31:23 [brianfreud]

Why force that on the user? The entire point of Picard's naming string, and taggerscript, is that MB does not force any particular directory structuring onto the user.

02:31:24 [hawke_1]

and I feel that they are the “primary” artist

02:31:41 [hawke_1]

I’m equally screwed under the old CSG.

02:31:46 [brianfreud]

Agreed, that is not optimal.

02:32:05 [brianfreud]

However, it's also, I think, far the lesser common use case.

02:32:14 [brianfreud]

And no, you wouldn't be as screwed.

02:32:34 [hawke_1]

There is no such thing as a “performer” for a release, AFAIK

02:32:38 [ianmcorvidae]

ultimately the most actionable point here, in my opinion, is "for god's sake we need to encourage people to use ARs"

02:32:38 [brianfreud]

Boston Pops would be in the title. (Still is)

02:33:01 [kepstin]

but boston pops is an artist, you shouldn't be looking for them in the title field.

02:33:28 [brianfreud]

yes, yet with each change to the artist and AC stuff, I see more people changing RGs *or* releases (so those now don't match), and skipping the ARs.

02:33:47 [brianfreud]

It's new, so it draws edits.

02:33:48 [ianmcorvidae]

yes, hence needing to find a way to encourage AR usage

02:34:00 [ianmcorvidae]

on the upside, bitmap's summer of code project is a relationship editor

02:34:06 [brianfreud]

What about this as a compromise idea?

02:34:09 [kepstin]

* kepstin goes and puts some pop music on which has a defined release artist, and composer ars.

02:34:09 [hawke_1]

That will help a lot.

02:34:12 [ianmcorvidae]

which means that the shiny-new-feature factor will apply to ARs in the near future

02:34:36 [hawke_1]

ianmcorvidae: Also that will make it usable, presumably

02:34:37 [brianfreud]

Add ARs directly to the artist fields. Instead of "VA -> Mozart, Britten, Tchaikovsky; The Norwegian Chamber Orchestra, Iona Brown",

02:34:44 [hawke_1]

editing ARs is a *giant* pain in the ass.

02:35:01 [brianfreud]

"VA -> Mozart {composer}, Britten {composer}, Tchaikovsky {composer}; The Norwegian Chamber Orchestra {orchestra performer}, Iona Brown {performer}"

02:35:02 [ianmcorvidae]

yeah, which is certainly part of why many people don't touch them

02:35:29 [kepstin]

brianfreud: you won't solve our problem of a lack of structured info by adding more unstructured fields :/

02:35:44 [brianfreud]

Now, at least, if I only want composers for classical, I can choose to only use the composer element of the artist, rather than all or none.

02:35:46 [ianmcorvidae]

of course, ultimately what *I'd* prefer is a system where, essentially, everything is ARs

02:35:58 [brianfreud]

No, I mean actually add AR dropdowns as part of each artist line

02:36:06 [brianfreud]

(artist) (AR) (joiner)

02:36:13 [brianfreud]

ala how Amazon does it

02:36:40 [hawke_1]

brianfreud: Sounds good to me. Open a ticket?

02:36:54 [ianmcorvidae]

basically add a fourth field to ARs (currently link phrase, join phrase, artist, adding link type)

02:36:57 [ianmcorvidae]

er

02:36:59 [ianmcorvidae]

not ARs, ACs

02:37:21 [ianmcorvidae]

not a terrible idea, though it should add actual ARs too if possible -- so it may be an interface question more than anything

02:37:45 [kepstin]

presumably that would just be an ar editor interface

02:37:45 [hawke_1]

THe only thing I find uncomfortable about that is trying to pick every reason someone might appear on the cover from the list of ARs we have currently.

02:38:04 [hawke_1]

e.g. I don’t think we have a “composer/release” AR.

02:38:28 [hawke_1]

(or rather a “release-composer ‘composed’” AR)

02:39:03 [kepstin]

well, we do.

02:39:24 [kepstin]

but it's currently supposed to be used as a "fuzzy" ar for when the composer isn't known for each song.

02:39:26 [ianmcorvidae]

we have an artist-work, but no artist-release 'composer' AR

02:39:34 [ianmcorvidae]

we do?

02:39:42 [kepstin]

yep

02:39:50 [ianmcorvidae]

hah

02:39:54 [ianmcorvidae]

I have actually never used that

02:40:16 [kepstin]

well, if you know which person composed each work, you wouldn't ever use it.

02:40:44 [brianfreud]

ianmcorvidae, I agree, though I think we need some transitional way to get from here to there, else we get just a total mess (like this type conversion)

02:40:49 [brianfreud]

found an example; http://www.amazon.com/Britten-Persons-Orchestra-Variations-Symphony/dp/B0000041S6/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1337135839&sr=8-2

02:40:49 [brianfreud]

Benjamin Britten (Composer), Benjamin Britten (Conductor), English Chamber Orchestra (Orchestra), London Symphony Orchestra (Orchestra)

02:40:50 [brianfreud]

kepstin, I'm hoping that pop music is a Dylan release, with all the works work I did there to allow that :D

02:41:07 [kepstin]

brianfreud: nah; it's a japanese artist.

02:41:25 [ianmcorvidae]

the main work we need

02:41:32 [ianmcorvidae]

is interface work, both here and everywhere else

02:41:38 [ianmcorvidae]

is the other takeaway here

02:42:17 [brianfreud]

ianmcorvidae, I think those got trashed when the NGS conversions happened, which is unfortunately

02:42:21 [brianfreud]

*unfortunate

02:42:41 [brianfreud]

a release-level composer (lyrics, etc) AR meant "composed something here, but I don't know what".

02:43:06 [ianmcorvidae]

well, we still have the artist-release AR, so they clearly weren't migrated to artist-work ARs

02:43:33 [kepstin]

almost the artist-release ARs were left untouched during ngs conversion

02:43:34 [brianfreud]

* brianfreud had just been thinking that that would have to be changed for releases/RGs/recordings by only AR to work

02:43:38 [kepstin]

(a few were moved to release groups)

02:43:50 [brianfreud]

ianmcorvidae, if you never have had to use it, that's prob a good thing. :D

02:44:28 [brianfreud]

http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Advanced_Relationship_Style#Prefer_Specific_Relationship_Types

02:44:53 [ianmcorvidae]

yeah, I'm usually entering things where either a.) I can pester the artist personally, or b.) it's pretty well-known/well-documented

02:44:57 [ianmcorvidae]

which works out well :)

02:45:01 [kepstin]

arg, I just made the 'E' on my hexadecimal 7-segment minecraft display backwards, so it's a '3' :/

02:45:04 [kepstin]

* kepstin turns it around.

02:49:15 [hawke_1]

brianfreud: Interesting example you chose, since that was changed at the end of last year, i.e. before that guideline you mentioned went into effect.

02:50:01 [hawke_1]

also, “Various Artists” isn’t exactly more helpful in your quest to find it in a composer-specific directory.

02:51:39 [brianfreud]

brianfreud has joined #musicbrainz

02:51:57 [brianfreud]

hawke_1, I snagged one at random.

02:52:21 [hawke_1]

brianfreud: Still, having multiple composers will be no less a problem than composer + performers

02:53:13 [brianfreud]

not really

02:53:30 [hawke_1]

why?

02:53:49 [brianfreud]

We always have had such artists as "WA Mozart & PI Tchichovsky"

02:53:53 [hawke_1]

That release is at your-best mozart/grieg/prokofiev.

02:54:15 [brianfreud]

That's fine.

02:54:47 [hawke_1]

Well, now the grieg release is not under grieg though.

02:54:52 [kepstin]

* kepstin dares someone to come up with a reasonable release artist for http://musicbrainz.org/release/ea811650-a289-4cc6-80df-5b7b23c6911a

02:55:41 [hawke_1]

“Various Artists”

02:55:45 [hawke_1]

That was easy. :-)

02:55:53 [kepstin]

hawke_1: quite :/

02:55:58 [brianfreud]

VA :)

02:56:16 [hawke_1]

Hmm, that cover says “5-disc set”

02:56:19 [hawke_1]

should something be merged

02:56:20 [hawke_1]

?

02:56:25 [hawke_1]

or do they not mean like a box set

02:56:28 [kepstin]

no, it's 5 individual releases

02:56:31 [kepstin]

in a series

02:56:44 [kepstin]

* kepstin has the 3rd, and only the 3rd.

02:57:13 [kepstin]

er, I may be wrong?

02:57:20 [hawke_1]

*shrug* I dunno

02:57:22 [kepstin]

they're all linked to the same amazon asin.

02:57:28 [hawke_1]

Probably the same box set

02:57:35 [kepstin]

but I definitely only have one, and it was purchased separately.

02:58:39 [hawke_1]

Does it say “5-disc set” on the cover? ;-)

02:58:44 [hawke_1]

Anyway, not that important

02:59:03 [kepstin]

i'd have to dig it up, it's in the basement somewhere.

02:59:29 [kepstin]

* kepstin should do that sometime tho, and submit scans for it to CAA :)

03:00:12 [kepstin]

whee, 16bit decoder to 2-digit hexidecimal display controller in minecraft complete.

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03:00:51 [kepstin]

I guess my next job is to build some ram for it to hook up to.

03:01:30 [hawke_1]

brianfreud: I think the most effective way to do do classical file layout would be something like: "%composer%/%composer%-%performer% - %recording-mbid%" (probably got the variables wrong, but…)

03:02:13 [kepstin]

* kepstin would assume that on most classical releases, all the works would have the same composer.

03:02:34 [kepstin]

aside from the various samplers, like the one I linked.

03:03:17 [hawke_1]

kepstin: I have found it pretty common that you have a main work and several auxiliary works, sometimes by other composers.

03:04:02 [hawke_1]

Anyway, point being that I wouldn’t necessarily even try to keep the release together, if my goal is to organize by composer.

03:07:26 [brianfreud]

hawke_1, http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:BrianFreud/CrazyPicardQTStrings :P

03:08:34 [brianfreud]

Ok, ticket created, if anyone wants to comment: http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/MBS-4722

03:10:05 [hawke_1]

brianfreud: Yeah, I know your picard scripting is insane. :-)

03:10:12 [brianfreud]

heh

03:10:25 [brianfreud]

actually, that page has saved me many times...

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03:11:27 [brianfreud]

whenever I lose my picard config file due to the "trying to autosave config while free space isn't sufficient deletes the config file" bug, and like recently, when I lose my root drive

03:12:38 [hawke_1]

For sure.

03:12:52 [hawke_1]

Cloud storage for you! ;-)

03:14:13 [brianfreud]

heh

03:14:34 [brianfreud]

that's why I'm going userscript development in github now :D

03:14:42 [brianfreud]

lost one big one I'd been working on for months

03:18:56 [hawke_1]

brianfreud: So what’s your basic organizational strategy? How do you deal with multiple recordings of the same work by the same composer?

03:19:13 [hawke_1]

or releases which have several composers?

03:19:48 [brianfreud]

../Music/Classical/R/Reich, Steve/Double Sextet ⁄ 2x5/1. Double Sextet: I. Fast.mp3

03:20:52 [brianfreud]

That's a wide ⁄ between "Sextet" and "2x5", not an ascii /

03:21:01 [hawke_1]

yep

03:21:29 [brianfreud]

lets me keep /'s in release titles :D

03:22:43 [brianfreud]

so to answer your q, I still keep things organized by releases, so that problem doesn't come up

03:23:40 [kepstin]

but your releases are organized by composer - so what happens if you have a release with multiple composers?

03:24:22 [brianfreud]

I think the version on the wiki is old, and it put them by the first composer matched

03:24:57 [brianfreud]

the version I lost matched against the track artist, and split the release (at least for classical)

03:25:35 [brianfreud]

having classical artist ACs, though, may break things. I might have to rewrite it to use mbids (and look all of them up) instead

03:26:26 [hawke_1]

Can’t you use %composer%?

03:27:30 [derwin]

honestly I watch you guys deal with this classical stuff

03:27:38 [derwin]

and I wonder

03:27:42 [derwin]

... are you masochists?

03:27:56 [hawke_1]

derwin: ?

03:30:21 [derwin]

just soooo many details

03:30:27 [derwin]

and so much ambiguity

03:30:31 [derwin]

no standardization at all

03:30:58 [hawke_1]

There’s standardization, it’s just mostly not on the releases.

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03:32:59 [brianfreud]

derwin, you'd prob find my dir structure masochistic :P

03:33:17 [brianfreud]

Except there's so many files there, I'd go crazy trying to find anything otherwise.

03:34:15 [hawke_1]

And too many for a library system to handle, I expect

03:34:23 [brianfreud]

far more

03:34:30 [hawke_1]

Unless it’s *very* lightweight

03:35:13 [brianfreud]

quod libit comes the closest, but even it dies on my collection

03:35:24 [brianfreud]

hawke_1, to better answer your question, this is how any given file ends up stored. It matches to a genre based on all my filters, defaulting to "music", then: http://pastebin.com/cXa1eniL

03:35:54 [brianfreud]

"early" is 'released before 1930, 'WW2 Recordings' is 'released between 1931 and 1950'

03:36:05 [brianfreud]

* brianfreud has to go for the night

03:36:29 [hawke_1]

night

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04:03:55 [hawke_1]

I thought track durations were automatically set from discIDs?

04:04:09 [ianweller]

not automatically, you have to manually click the link

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04:05:10 [hawke_1]

Hmm

04:05:27 [hawke_1]

I could have sworn I did that once and then modbot overrode it

04:06:31 [hawke_1]

*sigh* I should just apply to be an autoeditor

04:06:41 [CallerNo6]

* CallerNo6 chuckles

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07:39:50 [reosarevok]

Go go Jokipii_bot!

07:39:51 [reosarevok]

:)

07:39:55 [jesus2099]

how come shit pirate compilations appear in main discography while some official stuf is left out ?

07:40:01 [reosarevok]

* reosarevok wonders if bot users have language artificial_other

07:40:27 [jesus2099]

where is the discussion preceeding this artist page change total revamp ? I come here everyday and I didn’t see it I’m even subscribed to ML

07:40:50 [reosarevok]

jesus2099, http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/MBS-4717 is about that

07:41:01 [reosarevok]

(assuming "shit pirate compilations" = bootleg)

07:41:44 [jesus2099]

either bootleg or taiwanese pirate shit compilations

07:42:03 [reosarevok]

Well, if not official, they're still bootleg even if they're Taiwanese, right?

07:42:10 [reosarevok]

So if we do that they should be hidden

07:42:26 [jesus2099]

it’s incredible there is no discussion for such a drastic change and on contrary we must have endless bureaucratic shit for fixing small stuff that never happen :/

07:42:59 [jesus2099]

I mean where is the discussion PRECEEDING the artist page change that just happened, not a ticket to fix it

07:43:12 [jesus2099]

MBS-4717 is a ticket to fix it it seems

07:43:16 [reosarevok]

I gave you that for your first sentence

07:43:19 [reosarevok]

Not the second

07:43:26 [reosarevok]

(which you wrote while I was searching for it :) )

07:43:51 [jesus2099]

Hey I mean thanks reosarevok

07:43:59 [jesus2099]

but there is no RFC nothing ?

07:44:35 [reosarevok]

The discussion for that change started years ago on style, got stopped because we couldn't do it yet, revived on last summit, and was done mostly on the devel chat but sometimes here too later

07:44:49 [reosarevok]

There was no RFC, no, same as there was no RFC for adding works and recordings

07:45:22 [hawke_1]

Wouldn’t http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/MBS-3646 be it?

07:45:41 [reosarevok]

Previous discussion, yes, an RFC, no

07:45:43 [reosarevok]

But yeah

07:45:56 [hawke_1]

Right, that’s what I meant

07:46:04 [hawke_1]

it’s not a style thing so it wouldn’t need an RFC

07:46:22 [jesus2099]

it’s crazy. there are lots of drawbacks — I’m the first happy that we get closer to a chronological timeline I even made some tickets that never got comments on it IIRC but come on, we can’t get simple fixes through bureaucratic shit but this can appear all of a sudden with all its problems

07:46:29 [reosarevok]

There were several blog posts of the kind "these are the plans for the schema change, if you disagree please speak up", but the problem with schema changes are deadlines. They need to be done at a specific date, so it's more of a case of "we'll start with this and then more of it can go through style"

07:46:46 [jesus2099]

now I understand the chats from CatCat about official official stuff, it really came out of the blue for me

07:47:07 [reosarevok]

(while style changes can wait a bit more since they don't have to happen at a specific date or wait half a year or more)

07:47:09 [jesus2099]

When I read schema change, I thought of database technical stuff, not GUI change

07:47:27 [jesus2099]

maybe I’m so bad in english and that’s why…

07:47:35 [reosarevok]

Hmm

07:47:43 [reosarevok]

Admittedly, it can sound like it, yeah

07:47:47 [hawke_1]

Schema changes are often reflected in the gui though. Just like when we added works there suddenly showed up a works tab and things like that.

07:47:53 [reosarevok]

I mean, technically the schema change *Was* the database stuff

07:48:02 [hawke_1]

(OK, NGS was a huge change anyway

07:48:03 [reosarevok]

That part can't be changed until October now

07:48:11 [reosarevok]

How we display it can be changed next week

07:48:26 [hawke_1]

And probably will, assuming MBS-4717 gets done

07:48:35 [reosarevok]

(that's why it was considered more important to make the database changes and then make the UI better)

07:48:37 [SultS]

reosarevok, I gotta say, I didn’t read this kind of change out from the blog posts either

07:49:07 [reosarevok]

Hmmm, dunno, this was on the list of tickets and it looked pretty clear to me (the change, not the UI)

07:49:25 [reosarevok]

(the UI was hard to explain since nobody knew exactly what it would be - we still don't know!)

07:49:33 [SultS]

secondary release types, yes, but not merging releases together like this, no

07:49:48 [SultS]

but currently it doesn’t bother me that much

07:49:56 [reosarevok]

That's an UI thing

07:50:01 [jesus2099]

this kind of drastic stuff shold be more visible (forum, blog)

07:50:16 [reosarevok]

With the stuff there, a change in the display settings can move it all around

07:50:33 [reosarevok]

(say, you could have again a compilation section and a soundtrack section and you name it)

07:50:37 [SultS]

reosarevok, I get it, I just didn’t see anything mentioning that there will be that kind of change regarding that

07:50:56 [jesus2099]

but maybe it has DB source that the fact that we see shit releases among official releases and while some other official releases that should be there are left out aside

07:50:59 [reosarevok]

(the only problem being that some stuff would need to be in several at the same time)

07:51:20 [reosarevok]

jesus2099: no releases are "left aside", all are shown

07:51:22 [jesus2099]

it lacked publicity and request for comments

07:51:26 [reosarevok]

the problem is that *all* are shown :p

07:51:44 [reosarevok]

(so some of them can end up in page 2, for artists with lots of them)

07:51:44 [jesus2099]

reosarevok: some are not where they should be with the official disco that you see before singles

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07:52:05 [jesus2099]

they are not in the chronology if you want

07:52:16 [jesus2099]

they are in EP for instance

07:52:22 [reosarevok]

Well, it's not "the" cronology, it's the "album" chronology

07:52:58 [reosarevok]

(I'm not going to argue about mini-album because while I agree on album, other people want them to be EP or a primary category on itself...)

07:53:08 [reosarevok]

(so I'll leave that discussion to people who actually edit minialbums)

07:53:25 [hawke_1]

The UI was on test, too.

07:53:38 [jesus2099]

reosarevok: so if you prefer : ALBUM conrtains nonalbums and some albums are outside of ALBUMS

07:54:14 [jesus2099]

reosarevok: I edit mini albums back to album now but this is a side effect of this drastic change… that proves lack of RFC

07:54:15 [hawke_1]

jesus2099: Album does not contain non albums.

07:54:22 [reosarevok]

Album doesn't contain non-albums. It does contain non-studio albums, yes. But compilation albums are albums (while compilation EPs are not)

07:54:25 [hawke_1]

unless someone marked it wrong

07:54:30 [jesus2099]

I saw shit compilations in ALBUMS

07:54:37 [hawke_1]

jesus2099: Shit compilations are albums

07:54:42 [jesus2099]

shit compilations do not contain original tracks, they are thus not albums

07:54:59 [hawke_1]

You have a strange idea of "albums"

07:55:02 [jesus2099]

but OK I can live with compilation in albums but not SHIT compilations

07:55:13 [hawke_1]

This is why we have "official, album" type under the old system

07:55:22 [hawke_1]

"album" is not related to whether it is official

07:55:25 [reosarevok]

(where shit = unofficial I assume, so yeah, they'll go out)

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07:55:31 [jesus2099]

old system ?

07:55:38 [jesus2099]

reosarevok: ah they will go out, nice :)

07:55:41 [hawke_1]

The previous schema, with only one type.

07:55:48 [reosarevok]

Well, that's the idea

07:55:49 [jesus2099]

ah yes

07:55:53 [hawke_1]

but yes, the plan is to hide them (see MBS_4717)

07:55:58 [jesus2099]

reosarevok: the RG will go out ?

07:55:59 [reosarevok]

I don't really know why we showed them all before, tbh

07:56:13 [reosarevok]

jesus2099: the idea is to hide the RGs that have no official releases inside

07:56:35 [reosarevok]

(so to see them you have to press "see all" or whatever)

07:56:53 [reosarevok]

That should make stuff more cleaner

07:57:09 [jesus2099]

I actually made tickets to put official lives more prominent and hide pirate stuff, to display a chronology of all discography instead of splitting it in parts (can’t dfind those tickets back in jira search very bad) — I’m rather happy of this change but this lacked RFC

07:57:11 [reosarevok]

hawke_1: tbh I'd prefer a view that included official comps but took out all unofficial stuff

07:57:52 [reosarevok]

Those changes (which I kinda agree with, especially the first) are actually not style, so they don't really need RFCs - UI stuff is not supposed to go through style

07:57:53 [hawke_1]

reosarevok: that could work, of course. I find that compilations clutter it up too much, but that may be just me

07:58:15 [reosarevok]

hawke_1: Oh, I kinda do so too, and "hide compilations" or "separate compilations" would make sense

07:58:27 [reosarevok]

But I think they might need to be two different settings

07:58:33 [reosarevok]

Since they're also compatible

07:58:52 [reosarevok]

(say, if I look at a list of bootleg/promo, I can want to see only bootleg/promos that include new recordings)

07:59:00 [reosarevok]

(actually, I probably do)

07:59:01 [jesus2099]

reosarevok: then why does THIS http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/MBS-2766 needs RFC ?

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07:59:24 [reosarevok]

Because work types are not an UI change

07:59:36 [reosarevok]

They change the way we *store* stuff, not the way we display it

07:59:48 [jesus2099]

pfff this UI change is not just UI change, that’s wrong saying that… it changes release types

08:00:09 [jesus2099]

because for instance I have to change from EP to album some of them for instance

08:00:26 [reosarevok]

Yes, for this one I kinda agree, actually. I meant that the two ones you mentioned were just UI

08:00:32 [reosarevok]

(chronology, and pirate vs. official)

08:01:09 [reosarevok]

With the EP-to-album thing, I'd say if they should be under album now, then they should have been before too :)

08:01:21 [jesus2099]

http://bugs.musicbrainz.org/ticket/4640

08:02:05 [reosarevok]

Hmm, that links to http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/MBS-1563

08:02:14 [reosarevok]

Which maybe should be marked as related to hawke_1's ticket

08:02:23 [reosarevok]

since well, it is

08:02:40 [reosarevok]

I don't agree that's a dupe of pagination is painful :/

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08:02:50 [jesus2099]

can’t find the ticket on about chronological discography

08:03:01 [reosarevok]

"3. For example above, allow selection of release group type to jump to.

08:03:02 [reosarevok]

" well, whatever, I guess you can make anything a dupe of that :p

08:03:18 [hawke_1]

Did this change add/remove any types? I didn’t think it did…

08:03:33 [jesus2099]

yes

08:03:51 [reosarevok]

Not really

08:03:56 [jesus2099]

the release type edit is completely different it seems

08:04:02 [reosarevok]

DJ Mix, the only new type, hasn't been added yet

08:04:03 [jesus2099]

like there are several selects or something

08:04:07 [jesus2099]

means a change to me

08:04:14 [reosarevok]

Yeah, it allowed to select several, but didn't add more

08:04:28 [hawke_1]

It’s a change to how it is stored, but there are no new types.

08:04:48 [reosarevok]

I guess allowing multiple *could* be a style decision, but I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that part of the change anyway...

08:05:21 [hawke_1]

I can’t see how to frame it as a style decision until the schema change happened.

08:05:45 [hawke_1]

once that’s done you could certainly ask style about moving one from primary to secondary type, I guess

08:05:49 [reosarevok]

I mean, the "release groups should be able to have several types"

08:06:01 [reosarevok]

That's one thing I could see as somehow style-ish

08:06:09 [reosarevok]

But really, would anyone have disagreed?

08:06:21 [hawke_1]

It’s the style list, so yes.

08:06:25 [reosarevok]

heh

08:06:26 [jesus2099]

hawke reosarevok so you agree this kind of complete artist page change doesn’t need any discussion that the thousands of discographies can be broken just like this all of a sudden without any comments from users ?

08:06:46 [hawke_1]

jesus2099: I don’t think it’s broken, it’s just different.

08:06:50 [jesus2099]

and that small FIX must go through endless bureaucratic shit never ending :/

08:07:03 [jesus2099]

when it is different it is broken if you take the older look as a reference

08:07:23 [hawke_1]

jesus2099: The only difference that you’re seeing is that compilation is no longer a primary type

08:07:30 [jesus2099]

it’s a regression stuff… some edits have to come to fix that etc.

08:07:41 [reosarevok]

There's no regression there

08:07:51 [jesus2099]

no I see now official discography mixed with shot

08:07:57 [jesus2099]

torn appart

08:07:58 [reosarevok]

As I said, if mini-album should be under album, then it should have been under album earlier

08:08:07 [jesus2099]

yea

08:08:09 [reosarevok]

And before you would have seen bootleg albums under Album too

08:08:14 [jesus2099]

no

08:08:15 [reosarevok]

(since that was never hidden)

08:08:20 [hawke_1]

yes.

08:08:20 [jesus2099]

it’s bootleg compilation

08:08:28 [hawke_1]

Not all bootlegs are compilations

08:08:32 [jesus2099]

before the compilation were not in ALBUM this is a major change

08:08:39 [hawke_1]

compilation= “previously released material”

08:08:39 [reosarevok]

Bootleg albums would be mixed with official albums, bootleg lives with official lives, bootleg comps with official comps

08:09:00 [reosarevok]

(there are bootlegs of all those, and I agree all of them should be off by default)

08:09:13 [hawke_1]

now, a lot of bootlegs are live, so they were not generally on the front page

08:09:17 [reosarevok]

(and should have been before, too)

08:09:21 [jesus2099]

hawke_1: « compilation= “previously released material” » this is why it should not be in [original] albums

08:09:33 [jesus2099]

hawke_1: this is why at least some discussion was needed

08:09:35 [hawke_1]

and bands only get bootlegs released once they become popular, so they tend not to be at the top

08:09:36 [reosarevok]

hawke_1: I fear to look at the Grateful Dead right now, heh

08:10:55 [hawke_1]

Pink floyd is looking pretty good, for example. They’re a very popular bootleg artist.

08:10:56 [hawke_1]

http://musicbrainz.org/artist/83d91898-7763-47d7-b03b-b92132375c47

08:11:04 [hawke_1]

Only one wrong release

08:11:09 [hawke_1]

and that one is so, so very wrong

08:11:33 [hawke_1]

(on cd in 1967, marked as compilation when none of it is otherwise released)

08:14:04 [reosarevok]

* reosarevok will also point that the previous list of RG Type descriptions didn't go through style if I'm not mistaken

08:14:26 [reosarevok]

(so, albums being "generally new material" wasn't actually decided there)

08:15:10 [reosarevok]

* reosarevok also points at http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Reosarevok/RG_Type to see if people agree with the changes there - also, I need better example than Oldfield's. Anyone knows of a mainstream artist that re-recorded his greatest hits for an album?

08:15:23 [reosarevok]

(since Oldfield's is a re-recording of one album, not a best of)

08:16:58 [CatCat]

woa, reosarevok i'm older than you o_O

08:17:01 [jesus2099]

can eventually someone restore the uservoice archive ? many stuffs are stuck in that dumped archive

08:17:11 [CatCat]

also is klingon in the scripts list now?

08:17:24 [CatCat]

if so can I get itturned on

08:17:27 [hawke_1]

Hmm, http://musicbrainz.org/release/fdbf2b21-985b-4345-b02b-42124f80e5c4/cover-art …you guys think it’s OK to keep both bits of cover art?

08:17:36 [hawke_1]

of *front* cover art

08:17:39 [reosarevok]

CatCat: I think it's there already, isn't it? ask hawke_1 anyway

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08:17:51 [reosarevok]

If not, then yes, you can

08:17:57 [reosarevok]

Add it to the list with quenya and sindarin

08:17:59 [hawke_1]

It's in the languages list

08:18:01 [hawke_1]

not sure about scripts

08:18:06 [reosarevok]

Oh, script

08:18:07 [reosarevok]

Sorry

08:18:14 [reosarevok]

* reosarevok doesn't know about that one

08:18:23 [reosarevok]

CatCat: do I look so old? :p

08:18:40 [reosarevok]

(I mean, you do look younger than you are, but I didn't think I looked so old :( )

08:18:50 [v6lur]

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08:19:02 [reosarevok]

hawke_1: I'd say so

08:19:16 [reosarevok]

Maybe with some comment?

08:19:30 [hawke_1]

reosarevok: I can’t think of a comment that doesn’t state the obvious

08:19:33 [reosarevok]

(also, "picture disc"? for a CD? wtf)

08:19:46 [hawke_1]

like “this is the case with a number sticker on the front”

08:20:09 [reosarevok]

Oh

08:20:17 [reosarevok]

So it's not a special edition of it

08:20:25 [reosarevok]

Like, "n copies are numbered, the rest are not"

08:20:47 [jesus2099]

CatCat: what did you get for your official official discography you requested ? I did not understand it when yo usaid that for Queen until now I just see this artist page complete overhaul out of the blue that breaks “my” artists discographyies

08:21:07 [jesus2099]

in chat yesterday you were talking about official official. only now I get it

08:24:40 [v6lur]

ugh, bootlegs and best-ofs among regular albums...

08:24:47 [v6lur]

just... ugh.

08:25:07 [CatCat]

honestly I write better english than norwegian, since I use it 10² times more

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08:27:35 [reosarevok]

v6lur, http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/MBS-4717

08:27:56 [reosarevok]

(bootlegs were among regular lives earlier, though, which was pretty much as bad)

08:28:13 [reosarevok]

(if you mean live bootlegs)

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08:30:29 [CatCat]

[00:09] reosarevokhawke_: my point is that a native who is actually pretty crap at the language will usually be able to do "that seems wrong" even if he can't say "it should be this"

08:30:32 [CatCat]

this in norwegian

08:30:46 [CatCat]

I see it's wrong.. can't point out what's right

08:30:47 [CatCat]

:P

08:31:50 [jesus2099]

v6lur: yeah !

08:31:55 [jesus2099]

BIG UGH !

08:32:15 [jesus2099]

and no preliminary concertation

08:32:30 [jesus2099]

at least none I’ve heard of coming here everyday

08:33:21 [v6lur]

reosarevok: i meant live bootlegs, yeah... anyway that bugged me less, as i don't usually care as much for live stuff as studio albums/EPs/singles

08:34:03 [reosarevok]

v6lur, agreed, but this will probably have the nice effect of hiding them instead of being like "nevermind, nobody looks at live stuff..."

08:34:04 [reosarevok]

:p

08:34:29 [reosarevok]

(I just hope it'll happen in next release, but I guess it will)

08:38:39 [jesus2099]

I found back the picture I made for the chronological timeline discography but not the corresponding trac/jira/uservoice*/forums* (*) offline

08:38:39 [jesus2099]

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/6438/mbchronoartistpage.png

08:39:32 [reosarevok]

Hmm

08:39:54 [reosarevok]

I would like to keep the album - EP - single separation, but I wouldn't mind having that as an option too

08:40:09 [reosarevok]

(so you could switch from "category view" to "chronology view", so to say

08:40:14 [reosarevok]

)

08:40:18 [jesus2099]

anyway now in releases tab we see everything like this way

08:40:26 [v6lur]

in a sentence, why was this even done so... suddenly? a shock therapy to get loads of feedback on how to improve the display? :P

08:40:42 [jesus2099]

v6lur: ++++

08:40:50 [jesus2099]

it’s what I try to understand

08:41:21 [reosarevok]

v6lur: because schema change restrictions meant now or in October, and we felt the benefits of 5 months of it were bigger than the annoyance of one or two weeks of messy display

08:41:42 [reosarevok]

(well, that's what I think anyway, not that the decision was specifically mine)

08:41:47 [Mineo_]

didn't some people talk about the availability of quenya in the language selection yesterday? what was the result of that?

08:42:12 [reosarevok]

Mineo: we need to ask a dev to allow them and kick the cache, I think

08:42:38 [v6lur]

sindarin, too! :P

08:42:43 [reosarevok]

Yeah

08:42:54 [Mineo]

yeah, the lotr soundtracks use them a lot :-)

08:43:02 [reosarevok]

http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Reosarevok/Language_Requests

08:43:15 [reosarevok]

Can you edit that with language + example of what needs it? :)

08:43:34 [Mineo]

sure

08:44:07 [v6lur]

a bit later, gotta go now (lecture ended :P )

08:44:17 [jesus2099]

will we be able to search like this http://musicbrainz.org/search?query=lang%3Avie&type=editor&limit=100&method=direct  ? editors by lang

08:45:18 [reosarevok]

At some point, probably

08:45:31 [reosarevok]

(it's not there yet, but the way it's done allows it I think)

08:48:36 [jesus2099]

reosarevok: hawke_1 : ok for bootlegs, you said they will go away right ?

08:48:50 [Mineo]

reosarevok: done

08:48:55 [hawke_1]

jesus2099: They almost certainly will be hidden in some way, yes.

08:49:02 [jesus2099]

and now for compilations (not album because no new recordings) are they going to go away too ?

08:49:16 [hawke_1]

jesus2099: I would prefer that, yes.

08:49:21 [jesus2099]

cool.

08:49:26 [hawke_1]

it’s all up for debate of course.

08:49:39 [jesus2099]

but the merge into albums did not get any debate ! :/

08:49:41 [SultS]

jesus2099, some compilations do have new recordings though

08:49:58 [hawke_1]

I know catcat feels that some important compilations should be shown too.

08:50:03 [jesus2099]

SultS: yes but that’s not the point of compilations. just a marketing to make people buy it

08:50:23 [jesus2099]

hawke_1: we will SHOW them but not IN albums

08:50:40 [jesus2099]

compilation is another category, not an album

08:50:48 [hawke_1]

compilation is a kind of album.

08:50:52 [hawke_1]

Anyway, I need to go to sleep

08:50:56 [hawke_1]

it's almost 4am here

08:50:57 [jesus2099]

considering compilations an album needed debate

08:51:40 [SultS]

jesus2099: 1/3 of new content seems more to me than just any compilation

08:52:44 [jesus2099]

I only care of what the stuff was said to be by labels and artists. If they say compilation it’s a compilation no more :)

08:53:00 [jesus2099]

I don’t say it’s not interesting, just that it is another main category than album

08:53:13 [CatCat]

adding a "composer" field alongside "artist" field.. this iswhat I've bee nsaying now for 3 years

08:53:16 [CatCat]

godamnir

08:53:37 [reosarevok]

And it still makes no sense

08:53:48 [CatCat]

[04:36] ianmcorvidaebasically add a fourth field to ARs (currently link phrase, join phrase, artist, adding link type)

08:53:48 [reosarevok]

Put it on works, that's what works are for :p

08:53:48 [CatCat]

[04:36] ianmcorvidaeer

08:53:50 [CatCat]

[04:36] ianmcorvidaenot ARs, ACs

08:53:52 [CatCat]

this to!

08:54:02 [SultS]

they don't say it’s a compilation, but it is partly a compilation :P

08:54:23 [reosarevok]

SultS: is it "we put a lot of old singles in one album and fill it up a bit"?

08:54:36 [SultS]

sort of…

08:54:54 [SultS]

it was marketed as an “album” album with previous singles

08:55:01 [reosarevok]

Yeah, sure

08:55:09 [reosarevok]

AFAIK that's how they make albums in Japan for example

08:55:28 [reosarevok]

"Release loads of singles - put them all in an album with some more songs"

08:55:32 [reosarevok]

I'd just use Album

08:55:35 [reosarevok]

(not comp)

08:55:48 [SultS]

well the singles were in previous albums

08:55:51 [jesus2099]

reosarevok: marketed as album → album ¬ marketed as compilation → compilation

08:56:02 [jesus2099]

we shouldn’t try to be clever on many aspects

08:56:07 [SultS]

(it just doesn’t contain older stuff that weren’t singles before)

08:56:40 [SultS]

but looking at the ticket that wants to hide these it might be better to remove the compilation type

08:57:00 [reosarevok]

jesus2099: I kinda agree, although it's not that strange for what I've seen that it is "put out there and marketed as 'buy it!'" :)

08:57:07 [reosarevok]

(I mean, without calling it anything special)

08:57:31 [reosarevok]

Of course, that doesn't work for artists with decent websites with categories and discographies, but those are a minority

08:58:20 [reosarevok]

But I'd agree that if marketed as a normal album it should probably be entered as such

08:59:46 [reosarevok]

Mineo: oh, so it is for stuff sang in it? even better!

08:59:57 [SultS]

I’ve removed the second type for now

09:00:28 [Mineo]

reosarevok: yes. there are also annotated scores for the other two movies, but I haven't gotten around to work through them yet :-)

09:01:35 [CatCat]

[09:46] jesus2099When I read schema change, I thought of database technical stuff, not GUI change

09:01:37 [CatCat]

+100

09:01:38 [CatCat]

yes

09:01:59 [jesus2099]

CatCat: copain !

09:02:38 [reosarevok]

jesus2099, you mean he's your copain, or that you share the pain, thus co-pain? :D

09:02:38 [CatCat]

[09:49] reosarevok(say, you could have again a compilation section and a soundtrack section and you name it)

09:02:40 [CatCat]

yes please

09:02:52 [reosarevok]

CatCat: and what do you do for soundtrack compilations? :p

09:03:25 [reosarevok]

* reosarevok is not saying the current display is ideal, but going back to one per secondary type isn't either

09:03:35 [reosarevok]

(that's why we need a better option :) )

09:04:07 [jesus2099]

reosarevok: OST compilation → compilation

09:04:09 [CatCat]

[09:53] jesus2099I saw shit compilations in ALBUMS

09:04:09 [CatCat]

[09:54] hawke_1jesus2099: Shit compilations are albums

09:04:09 [CatCat]

[09:54] jesus2099shit compilations do not contain original tracks, they are thus not albums

09:04:14 [jesus2099]

compilation is a main type

09:04:17 [CatCat]

<-- this is what I meant with "official official"

09:04:19 [CatCat]

shesh

09:04:20 [CatCat]

:)

09:04:38 [jesus2099]

CatCat: tope-la mon gars !

09:04:53 [jesus2099]

CatCat: this means I’m with you, yay ;)

09:05:24 [CatCat]

[09:56] reosarevokhawke_1: tbh I'd prefer a view that included official comps but took out all unofficial stuff

09:05:25 [CatCat]

yep

09:06:44 [reosarevok]

Estonian wikipedia, why do you remove articles?

09:06:59 [reosarevok]

Isn't the country small enough for keeping all? :/

09:07:37 [SultS]

too small to have room for all the articles, apparently

09:09:01 [reosarevok]

So Mart Laar was right? :D

09:09:43 [SultS]

I don’t know what he said :)

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09:10:35 [reosarevok]

That he had removed critical comments from his Facebook because "it was running out of space" or something like that

09:10:40 [reosarevok]

I guess it's the same effect!

09:11:16 [SultS]

hahaha

09:11:26 [SultS]

I guess it must be true then :)

09:11:49 [CatCat]

[10:08] jesus2099hawke_1: « compilation= “previously released material” » this is why it should not be in [original] albums <--

09:12:29 [jesus2099]

yeah man

09:12:30 [reosarevok]

"Album" implying "original" was a side-effect of us not being able to store compilation albums as compilation albums

09:13:00 [reosarevok]

Note that "album" as a music related word doesn't necessarily have that implication

09:13:15 [SultS]

haha, found http://www.delfi.ee/news/paevauudised/eesti/fotod-laaril-sai-facebook-otsa-ehk-kuidas-rahvas-mart-laari-internetis-pilab.d?id=63832924

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09:13:47 [CatCat]

reosarevok: I was mostly surprised by how old *i* am. i see people around me look like adults it surprises me that I'm older than them

09:13:49 [CatCat]

heh :)

09:13:55 [reosarevok]

:D

09:14:07 [reosarevok]

Come on, you're not that old

09:15:04 [CatCat]

(sorry guys I'm reading chatlogs so..)

09:15:13 [CatCat]

I'm almost up to synch with you

09:15:26 [CatCat]

(It's taken me over an hour to readal lthis stuff :O)

09:15:59 [CatCat]

[10:39] reosarevokI would like to keep the album - EP - single separation, but I wouldn't mind having that as an option too

09:16:01 [CatCat]

THAT

09:16:51 [reosarevok]

Oh crap

09:17:01 [reosarevok]

I wanted to ask nikki if there's a ticket for it

09:17:05 [reosarevok]

BUT SHE'S NOT HERE!

09:17:08 [reosarevok]

What will we do now!

09:17:13 [reosarevok]

Use Jira search? :/

09:17:16 [reosarevok]

:D

09:20:47 [CatCat]

I don't *feel* that old, but it's like "lalala age.. lala. WHAIT WHAT I'M THIRTY?"!??!"

09:20:57 [CatCat]

omg I'm.. i'm at the end

09:21:00 [CatCat]

hi guys!

09:21:20 [CatCat]

and now I have to go, i am gettign things ready for tomorrow wich is norways national day

09:21:26 [CatCat]

like 4th of july for mericans

09:21:37 [CatCat]

it's a big deal!

09:22:01 [reosarevok]

:)

09:22:03 [reosarevok]

Party!

09:22:14 [CatCat]

yes!

09:22:28 [CatCat]

hmm. waht kind of music is http://musicbrainz.org/release/ebfc7409-ec5f-4610-bb97-f92570965efc anyway? blipblip or crunch bluuuuurRRGHHGHGH

09:23:23 [CatCat]

reosarevok: and people marching towards the roual castel fro mevery school, and kids running around with silly pray that never comeoff :P only they changed it ant it does coem offf........ i need ot buy soem now

09:23:36 [reosarevok]

:)

09:23:42 [CatCat]

hmm i need t ogo out, gotta buy fillweed, and hello kitty cookies.. soem fruit

09:23:47 [CatCat]

aahh!

09:24:08 [CatCat]

dill not fill wtf

09:24:10 [CatCat]

\o/

09:24:24 [CatCat]

tomorow is goingot be fun. if only them eat steak thing will melt

09:30:54 [CatCat]

"internet raw transmission data as basic sound source processed through a custom software."

09:31:02 [CatCat]

this is.. kinda insterestign actually

09:31:10 [CatCat]

http://www.10111.org/0.php?wakka=LOLCD

09:34:09 [jesus2099]

OK I fixed some mini albums… I’ll see the compilations fixes later, if someone could vote these regression fixes I would be glad :) http://musicbrainz.org/user/jesus2099/edits/open (reosarevok hawke_1 CatCat)

09:34:29 [reosarevok]

jesus2099: what are the compilation fixes?

09:34:48 [CatCat]

i'm surprised how "organic" this "internetdata" is sounding

09:34:49 [jesus2099]

find a way to remove them by putting Other+Compilation for instance

09:34:53 [reosarevok]

Compilation albums *are* albums, please do *not* change it to Other or whatever - just be patient and they'll be viewed differently

09:34:59 [jesus2099]

instead of Album+Compilation (bad migration script imo)

09:35:03 [reosarevok]

(with minialbums we agree)

09:35:12 [jesus2099]

thanks for mini album :)

09:35:27 [jesus2099]

for compilations ---- by album people usually think ORIGINAL album

09:35:47 [CatCat]

I was kidna agreewwith other comp for things liek not offical official :P

09:35:57 [jesus2099]

« yeah I bought her last album » usually doesn’t mean her “greatest hits”

09:36:01 [CatCat]

also I DO NOT agree that a comp i an "album"

09:36:03 [CatCat]

no

09:36:10 [CatCat]

(notice the "'s thoguh please)

09:36:13 [reosarevok]

CatCat: what that needs is to allow hiding bootlegs etc, not changing them to Other to game the display

09:36:47 [CatCat]

a bootleg compilatino is neve an album

09:36:53 [reosarevok]

How come?

09:36:54 [CatCat]

a bootleg compilation is never an album

09:37:02 [CatCat]

becasue compilations are not albums

09:37:21 [CatCat]

"compilation album" is not "album album"

09:37:24 [reosarevok]

Sure

09:37:34 [reosarevok]

That's why they're "album + compilation" and not "album"

09:37:43 [reosarevok]

And why we had them under just "compilation" when we couldn't do that :p

09:37:55 [CatCat]

like a "single album" is not an "album album"

09:37:58 [CatCat]

reosarevok: exactly

09:38:10 [CatCat]

so coms shoudl be mixed with albums in a non cronological view

09:38:16 [reosarevok]

But we can do album + compilation now, so nobody is claiming that they're just "albums"

09:38:25 [CatCat]

but I really liek your idea of havign two0 differnt views

09:38:46 [reosarevok]

Anyway, I need noms

09:38:47 [CatCat]

like one chronologically and one with "separated stuff"

09:38:54 [CatCat]

* CatCat needs noms and medisine too

09:38:55 [CatCat]

bye all

09:44:09 [jesus2099]

compilation album ≠ album+compilation

09:44:25 [jesus2099]

reosarevok: compilation album → compilation+whatvere (album if you like)

09:44:53 [jesus2099]

by CatCat

09:45:02 [reosarevok]

huh

09:45:20 [reosarevok]

In French it seems to even be Album compilation instead of Compilation album :p http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat%C3%A9gorie:Album_compilation

09:45:36 [jesus2099]

I’ve fixed some mini albums I know because I either have them or input them but what about all the others ?

09:45:37 [reosarevok]

"En musique, une compilation — une « compil' » dans le langage familier — est un album regroupant soit plusieurs enregistrements (parfois mixés) de différents artistes, mais possédant souvent des caractéristiques communes"

09:46:00 [jesus2099]

reosarevok: « yeah I bought her last album » usually doesn’t mean her “greatest hits”

09:46:27 [jesus2099]

no one says « J’ai un album compilation » it’s so crazy incorrect french only seen on wikipedia btw :)

09:46:55 [jesus2099]

we say « woaw la super compil’ !  » = « Hey what a great compilation !  »

09:47:53 [jesus2099]

reosarevok: Or maybe what you want is : Album+original album on one side and Album+compilation on the other side ?

09:48:24 [jesus2099]

but to me compilation is a primary root distinct from album

09:48:45 [reosarevok]

Dunno. I think I would agree on storing it as album + compilation, ep + compilation, album + compilation + soundtrack, etc, but displaying them all under "Compilation" (I think compilation EPs are mostly in as EPs right now)

09:49:17 [reosarevok]

But I don't care too much on either way, for display, so I will keep out of display arguments - especially since I should be studying for my exams next week instead :)

09:49:33 [jesus2099]

ok good luck, then ! :)

09:50:07 [reosarevok]

Thanks :)

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10:28:18 [CatCat]

shouldn't the release artist be n3krozoft.m0rd http://musicbrainz.org/release/ebfc7409-ec5f-4610-bb97-f92570965efc http://www.10111.org/0.php?wakka=LOLCD with subtitle "a netzwerk tragedy"

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10:44:51 [noobie]

pankkake: ?

10:59:44 [Wizzcat_]

holy balls, vinyl track numbers on mbz... I never though I'd see the day

11:00:04 [ocharles]

:)

11:03:33 [reosarevok]

brian__, http://musicbrainz.org/edit/17638852 ?

11:03:41 [reosarevok]

(assuming you're brianfreud)

11:03:57 [reosarevok]

Lack of official-ness doesn't make it "Other"...

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11:11:49 [marianaaf]

hey guys! http://shop.kitsune.fr/t/music/singles they call it singles but they add EP in the name. will add "EvenThough", the first one, as single sine it's the same song, right?

11:13:03 [reosarevok]

Hmm, I guess I would, yeah

11:13:07 [marianaaf]

thanks

11:13:22 [reosarevok]

(I would use EP if the cover said EP, but it does not)

11:13:40 [reosarevok]

(say, I'd use EP for Database - New Disco EP)

11:14:35 [marianaaf]

didn't get the I'd use EP for Database - New Disco EP

11:14:44 [reosarevok]

It's further down on that page

11:14:45 [marianaaf]

sorry

11:14:45 [reosarevok]

:)

11:15:29 [reosarevok]

* reosarevok was checking to see if they never used EP on cover and saw they do, in a way which seems to differentiatie EPs from singles, too

11:15:30 [marianaaf]

oh ok ;)

11:15:38 [marianaaf]

sorry

11:15:50 [reosarevok]

(since the ones with EP on the cover are different songs, not single + remix)

11:15:55 [marianaaf]

yes in that case they include two different songs

11:16:18 [reosarevok]

Oh, btw

11:16:23 [marianaaf]

exactly

11:16:25 [marianaaf]

thanks ;)

11:16:25 [reosarevok]

I imagine you've noticed the changes by now

11:16:30 [marianaaf]

yeees ;)

11:16:39 [marianaaf]

thanks thanks many thanks!

11:16:40 [marianaaf]

;)

11:16:42 [reosarevok]

But I don't know if you've seen you can select several secondary types by control-clicking

11:16:43 [reosarevok]

:)

11:17:02 [marianaaf]

oh that one didn't know but that's awesome!

11:17:15 [marianaaf]

ehehe now I'll add single+remix which is amazing

11:39:40 [_5moufl]

is it just me or MB is superslow?

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11:46:23 [ocharles]

_5moufl: basic browsing seems ok for me

11:50:29 [Tykling]

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11:53:08 [reosarevok]

Yeah, I haven't noticed anything too bad

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12:41:44 [voiceinsideyou]

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12:42:12 [roosoft]

\q

12:55:02 [_5moufl]

nvm ocharles, it's just my wifi :x

12:55:50 [_5moufl]

sometimes it slows down until I reinstall the (same) driver :s

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13:08:58 [reosarevok]

heh

13:09:01 [reosarevok]

"Abusing wireless to download new MusicBrainz dump (@ The Phoenix Cinema)"

13:16:32 [mat_]

hum, I can't seem to find one, but is there some kind of plugin for picard that would add lyrics to tracks ?

13:20:48 [kepstin-work]

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13:36:33 [noobie]

$if($eq(%album%,'[non-album]')

13:36:36 [noobie]

is this valid?

13:37:45 [noobie]

ah without ' '

13:38:36 [Mineo]

you're missing at least one parenthesis

13:47:57 [noobie]

yes it's if(arg1,arg2,..)...

13:48:51 [mat_]

hum, more than one iswc for a work ?

13:53:47 [mat_]

many userscripts broke, damn, better call it a day and decide it's the week end

13:57:24 [reosarevok]

mat_: sadly, it happens

13:57:38 [reosarevok]

(having two or even three ISWCs for the same thing)

13:58:21 [mat_]

it happened to me but they were slightly different versions of the same work :-)

13:58:33 [mat_]

anyway, I said week end :-)

13:58:51 [reosarevok]

heh

14:07:35 [kepstin-work]

* kepstin-work gets somewhat amused by the tags on http://allisonweiss.bandcamp.com/album/the-teenage-years - "rock" "antifolk" "folk" "folk rock"

14:07:51 [kepstin-work]

how can it be both 'antifolk' and 'folk'? wouldn't the world explode?

14:09:23 [noobie]

soooooooooooooooooooo weird

14:09:25 [warp]

all the anti- genres seem like slight variations of the non-anti genre, so to me it always seems like a bullshit prefix.

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14:48:42 [SultS]

is single also considered a remix, if it has original + remixes on it?

14:52:04 [kepstin-work]

SultS: i'd say usually not - a lot of singles (maxi-singles?) come with various extra tracks, such as remixes.

14:53:14 [SultS]

so only if there is no original version on it?

14:54:01 [SultS]

oh, but it’s for a release group… and it can contain both variants

14:54:41 [reosarevok]

Yeah

14:54:56 [reosarevok]

I don't know if there's a clear agreement on whether "X: The Remixes" is the same RG as X

14:55:00 [kepstin-work]

if they release a single that's marketed distinctly from the original single, and is primarily remixes, then it would go into a new release group

14:55:02 [kepstin-work]

imo

14:57:07 [SultS]

most singles I come across contain mostly mixes and/or remixes that are different from the original mix, but mostly also include the original… I would like have them all in the same group

14:58:14 [kepstin-work]

SultS: yeah, most of those are just considered different variations of the same single, with the remixes being extra/bonus tracks.

15:00:04 [SultS]

sure, but some of these don’t have the original, yet released at the same time as the rest

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15:05:09 [dubwai]

hey why it's not possible to upload simple avatar

15:05:28 [hawke_]

dubwai: “simple avatar”?

15:05:30 [reosarevok]

dubwai: because that would mean we have to store the avatars ourselves

15:05:49 [hawke_]

reosarevok: cover art archive? ;-)

15:05:54 [dubwai]

i don't like web2.0 collecting personal information service, but i like to show my "face"

15:06:29 [dubwai]

lol musicbrainz forum save avatar, but main site not possible?

15:06:39 [reosarevok]

It's pre-built in the forum

15:06:41 [dubwai]

10kb is so much :-D

15:06:55 [reosarevok]

Maybe it will be done later, I don't know - the point was more avoiding coding all that, I think

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15:12:54 [dubwai]

good idea because http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/44717/is-gravatar-a-privacy-risk

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15:17:35 [reosarevok]

Well, that's why it's optional :)

15:18:05 [reosarevok]

Another way of having an avatar would be nice, but it's admittedly not a very big priority

15:22:59 [dubwai]

yes priority is not bit :-)

15:23:27 [dubwai]

also why blog header don't follow to blog home page

15:23:54 [dubwai]

i foung "Blog Home" at right side ~1 minute

15:23:58 [dubwai]

*found

15:27:19 [hawke_]

Hmm, live + spokenword + albums: http://musicbrainz.org/artist/f2a05fc2-b8bc-4486-a77b-f7dd104b8ebc/open_edits

15:30:37 [hawke_]

Can anyone think of any possible examples of an '(radio drama|audiobook) (album|single|ep)' before I propose those as additional primary types?

15:30:42 [kepstin-work]

machigaeta_mofumofushitaio's english isn't great, but you could ask him to confirm that the albums were performed live for an audience.

15:31:42 [hawke_]

kepstin-work: It wasn’t that I don’t trust it, I just think it’s good to see combinations. :-)

15:46:29 [hawke_]

http://www.discogs.com/release/293350 : misspelling, or artist intent? :-)

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15:48:48 [hawke_]

This is why I hate http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Principle/Artist_intent#Exception:_Spelling.2C_Punctuation_and_Grammar

15:50:14 [reosarevok]

huh

15:50:16 [reosarevok]

"creating new imaginary words for stylistic purposes"

15:50:23 [reosarevok]

Does this suggest those should be "fixed"?

15:50:58 [hawke_]

I would say it does.

15:51:02 [reosarevok]

I mean, the examples seem to imply "no", but then the writing of the rationale is confusing

15:51:07 [CatCat]

wtf is a anti-x genre?

15:51:21 [CatCat]

I'm listening to any-crap?

15:51:24 [reosarevok]

CatCat: the same as a genre, but done by pedantic hipsters

15:51:25 [CatCat]

:P

15:51:27 [CatCat]

Now grooving to: Queen ~ One Vision (5:50) (from Live at Wembley '86 (disc 1)) (1986)

15:51:41 [dubwai]

in picard will be add changes to show primary and secondary types?

15:51:46 [dubwai]

in tags

15:51:50 [hawke_]

Isn’t it basically “alternative x”?

15:51:51 [kepstin-work]

to be precise, anti-folk is simply folk done be people who don't like being labelled as folk.

15:51:57 [hawke_]

or “neo x”?

15:52:03 [hawke_]

or “neo-neo x”

15:52:07 [reosarevok]

dubwai: probably - ask bitmap or luks, but probably

15:52:14 [kepstin-work]

the amusing thing is just that the release I linked is tagged both 'folk' and 'antifolk' :)

15:52:56 [kepstin-work]

* kepstin-work wants a way to mark which alias is the artist's "native"-language name.

15:53:05 [hawke_]

reosarevok: the examples are actually counter-examples or exceptions

15:53:07 [kepstin-work]

(so I can grab the native-language sortname)

15:53:32 [dubwai]

bitmap: you plan add in picard will be add changes to show primary and secondary types?

15:53:32 [dubwai]

d

15:53:48 [CatCat]

re [17:49] reosarevok"creating new imaginary words for stylistic purposes"

15:53:53 [CatCat]

se ENGRISH

15:53:58 [hawke_]

how long is you long your hair to be grow to be?

15:54:11 [CatCat]

I ams to not knows this

15:54:31 [CatCat]

but every non-n<tive does this at soem pint

15:54:32 [CallerNo6]

bizarro!

15:54:35 [CatCat]

we do it ven i nnorway

15:54:47 [CatCat]

it's called "engorsk"

15:55:10 [CatCat]

swedish/norwegian mangeled is caleld "svorsk"

15:55:17 [reosarevok]

hawke_: my point is that "creating new imaginary words for stylistic purposes" sounds like pretty much the definition of artist intent

15:55:27 [hawke_]

reosarevok: Yep.

15:55:46 [reosarevok]

That's like correcting Motörhead because "Motor doesn't have that weird thing!!!!"

15:55:53 [CatCat]

even if not non-native english, peopel are bound to see this and make up shit becasue they think it's "cool"

15:56:01 [CatCat]

thoghu I don't mind whne peopelpaly with language

15:56:09 [CatCat]

reosarevok: dude totally

15:56:33 [CatCat]

hn fail typing why today?

15:56:58 [reosarevok]

Or making "Nuthin' but a 'G' Thang" into "Nothing but a 'G' Thing"

15:56:58 [reosarevok]

:p

15:57:10 [reosarevok]

* reosarevok wants to think voters would be like wtfdudeno

16:01:12 [CallerNo6]

You Are Nothing If Not a Hound-dog

16:01:44 [reosarevok]

:(

16:01:55 [reosarevok]

Why aren't there more rap listeners on style

16:02:08 [reosarevok]

I'm never going to get opinions about the mixtape/street thing

16:02:32 [CallerNo6]

Forums? (when they work)

16:03:11 [reosarevok]

That adds... maybe one or two

16:03:27 [reosarevok]

(I mean, the only one I know for sure is voice and he suggested the wording)

16:03:37 [CallerNo6]

um, ping known active hip-hop-minded editors and ask them to weigh in?

16:04:21 [reosarevok]

Maybe

16:04:26 [reosarevok]

Guess it won't hurt

16:05:09 [CallerNo6]

It's worked for me (although I got no sense of whether it annoyed the editors I pinged, because I'm too self-absorbed to know that sort of thing)

16:06:05 [reosarevok]

I guess if they mind they can not answer :p

16:09:59 [CallerNo6]

* CallerNo6 is trying to think of an example of a "classical" work w/ two composers. can't figure out how to craft a search string.

16:11:14 [CallerNo6]

of course there's http://musicbrainz.org/work/45ec51ab-2614-33fd-898e-fbdf6bbaca51 but that's pretty sketchy

16:11:56 [hawke_]

Wow, this looks like a clusterfuck: http://musicbrainz.org/release-group/2e515ed9-3a26-30df-bee0-61760ccf20e2/open_edits

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16:12:23 [CallerNo6]

maybe nikki will want to help me find instances of "additionally composed" relationships

16:12:46 [reosarevok]

CallerNo6: does http://musicbrainz.org/work/77704195-246a-30bc-867a-e6a1c17801cb count?

16:12:54 [reosarevok]

CallerNo6: she's on holiday!

16:12:55 [reosarevok]

:p

16:13:10 [demosdemon]

hawke_: what

16:13:14 [demosdemon]

what is that?

16:13:17 [demosdemon]

that doesn't look right

16:13:23 [hawke_]

demosdemon: Exactly.

16:14:05 [hawke_]

CallerNo6: http://musicbrainz.org/work/0c5ffcac-7b4a-400f-884f-73cedf117a07

16:14:06 [CallerNo6]

reosarevok: perfect. symphonick needs an example of a two-composer work

16:14:18 [hawke_]

demosdemon: I am tempted to no-vote the whole thing

16:14:20 [reosarevok]

You can clean that up while you're at it :p

16:14:26 [kepstin-work]

* kepstin-work loves how it's composed by Charles-François Gounod, Charles-François Gounod, and Johann Sebastian Bach

16:14:37 [hawke_]

As far as I can tell he’s trying to completely replace one release with another, for some reason

16:14:44 [hawke_]

instead of just adding a correct one

16:14:52 [hawke_]

and maybe removing an incorrect one

16:15:20 [demosdemon]

that's what it looks like too

16:16:35 [demosdemon]

especially the remove discid

16:16:46 [demosdemon]

that doesn't make any sense

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16:17:23 [hawke_]

* hawke_ no-votes the whole thing.

16:17:29 [hawke_]

Well, the remove discID could be fine

16:17:45 [hawke_]

if it were a vinyl that didn't have the medium format set properly

16:17:58 [hawke_]

* hawke_ cuts his own throat for using the phrase "a vinyl"

16:18:11 [kepstin-work]

if the release date is 1970 on that, and there's another cd release using that disk id, then the remove disk id edit is ok, imo.

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16:22:15 [hawke_]

kepstin-work: I would agree, but it sounds like that editor is trying to treat it as if it’s a different release

16:23:00 [hawke_]

In fact, that’s exactly what he’s doing

16:24:12 [hawke_]

the disc ID belongs to the second, unidentified medium type; he inserted a vinyl record at position 1 before the unidentified medium for some reason

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16:37:09 [bitmap]

dubwai: did you mean changing releasetype to include both types, or adding additional variables to store them separately?

16:40:40 [dubwai]

bitmap: for me doesn't matter sperate or include in one field, main thing that they all will in tags

16:43:59 [bitmap]

I'm guessing the former will break scripts that rely on the old set of types

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16:48:02 [hawke_]

doesn’t the webservice map/generate the old release types?

16:48:25 [hawke_]

(based on the new ones)

16:48:44 [bitmap]

yes

16:49:24 [bitmap]

Picard uses that for releasetype

16:50:53 [hawke_]

That’s what I figured.

16:51:23 [reosarevok]

We should move away from that - new types are coming that people might want to use

16:51:33 [hawke_]

bitmap: it would work to just have multiple %releasetype% tags though, wouldn’t it?

16:51:39 [reosarevok]

But yeah, no need to rush and break stuff I guess

16:51:40 [hawke_]

(much like we do with genre)

16:52:27 [bitmap]

yeah, but people would have to filter out which ones are primary and which are secondary

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16:54:26 [hawke_]

bitmap: would they? I think it would just be a matter of using $inmulti instead of $eq (which would be breaking things a bit, yes)

16:56:08 [bitmap]

they still have to test for the primary type manually when it'd ideally be a single variable

16:56:38 [hawke_]

what do you mean?

16:58:19 [bitmap]

ah, I see your point

16:59:06 [bitmap]

I just think since primary type is always a single value, it should have its own variable

16:59:33 [hawke_]

Ah. I would just treat it as one value of %releasetype%

16:59:50 [hawke_]

and leave the exclusivity up to the website interface

17:00:00 [hawke_]

I can’t imagine the situation where it would matter

17:00:13 [hawke_]

The only case it might is if we have a primary and a secondary of the same name

17:00:35 [hawke_]

and someone cared whether a release was that type in primary, or secondary

17:00:43 [hawke_]

I just added http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/MusicBrainz_Picard/Documentation/Scripting#.24inmulti.28x.2Cy.29

17:01:11 [hawke_]

Not sure if that description is adequate, but I thought it should be added.

17:01:32 [bitmap]

looks fine :)

17:01:44 [noobie]

Like <nowiki$copy</nowiki>, this will

17:01:49 [noobie]

that looks wrong ?

17:01:50 [noobie]

^^

17:02:05 [noobie]

> is missing^^

17:02:19 [noobie]

except taht it looks neat :)

17:03:09 [hawke_]

noobie: I didn’t change that, not my fault. ;-)

17:03:14 [noobie]

*g

17:03:22 [noobie]

* noobie never accused anyone

17:03:23 [hawke_]

Fixed though

17:04:34 [bitmap]

if releasetype were multi-valued, I guess we could guarantee the primary type is always the first value

17:06:31 [hawke_]

Seems reasonable, though I can’t see why anyone would need to know whether a type was primary or secondary

17:07:18 [hawke_]

Although we do have audiobook + audiobook :-)

17:07:30 [hawke_]

Was that an error, or …?

17:07:37 [bitmap]

I saw a ticket for that

17:08:18 [hawke_]

http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/MBS-4720

17:08:25 [reosarevok]

bitmap: I think you can have blank + secondary

17:08:33 [reosarevok]

No idea how that gets served...

17:10:15 [hawke_]

was type required before?

17:11:04 [bitmap]

no

17:11:37 [hawke_]

Then probably the same as before. :-)

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17:29:33 [bricas]

is there an example of the new vinyl track list capability?

17:29:36 [Sekhmetouserapis]

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17:30:20 [hawke_]

http://musicbrainz.org/release/baf2ffdb-f496-3cba-a32d-ef6ec3affb94

17:30:34 [hawke_]

hmm

17:30:50 [hawke_]

http://musicbrainz.org/edit/17638285

17:31:03 [hawke_]

I guess changing the format made that not an autoedit or something

17:31:19 [Sekhmetouserapis]

hi, in order to split the "Les McCann & Eddie Harris" collaboration ( http://musicbrainz.org/artist/28246ac9-2325-4e23-93c5-1f4eb696943d ), I'm supposed to remove an AR. Is it the BBC one ? (I'm going to eat, don't worry if I don't answer in the minute ^^ )

17:31:57 [hawke_]

bricas: also http://musicbrainz.org/release/3cad554e-3c5a-4808-a859-1a7f03be07cc

17:32:38 [hawke_]

Sekhmetouserapis: Yes.

17:33:01 [hawke_]

Why the fuck do we even have BBC Music ARs when they pull their data straight from us?

17:33:32 [kepstin-work]

hawke_: the ars link to manually-written reviews

17:33:47 [kepstin-work]

(amusingly, the link to the review is shown on the review page)

17:34:35 [reosarevok]

hawke_: they also get their pictures from other sources, and probably a few other things

17:34:43 [hawke_]

I’d rather see it as an automatic link, but I hear people don’t like that.

17:34:51 [reosarevok]

(although admittedly, for artists they're not too useful. for RG reviews, they are)

17:35:02 [kepstin-work]

hawke_: automatically linking to release reviews would be tricky.

17:35:11 [hawke_]

kepstin-work: I mean for artists.

17:35:24 [kepstin-work]

hawke_: we shouldn't be linking to their artist pages...

17:35:27 [hawke_]

Given that presumably every single MB artist has a corresponding BBC music page

17:35:47 [bricas]

are there style guidelines for doing side a/side b?

17:36:01 [kepstin-work]

bricas: not yet.

17:36:06 [kepstin-work]

But we should write one :)

17:36:31 [reosarevok]

Should we?

17:36:34 [reosarevok]

dunno, maybe yes

17:36:45 [reosarevok]

In general, it does sound like "use the printed side name" would work...)

17:36:52 [reosarevok]

Argh, ) overdose

17:37:12 [kepstin-work]

A track number style guideline saying to use 'A1/B1' etc. on most releases would probably be good to make sure they don't get too weird.

17:38:15 [kepstin-work]

* kepstin-work suggests including a sentence: "On most releases, the track numbers should be integers starting at 1 and increasing by 1 for each track"

17:38:29 [reosarevok]

lol

17:38:46 [kepstin-work]

I mean it.

17:39:15 [hawke_]

+1

17:39:22 [hawke_]

er…

17:39:37 [kepstin-work]

with sections on vinyl/cassette side numbering, and releases without track numbers

17:39:53 [hawke_]

“I agree with the comment that it would be useful to note that tracks generally increment by one”

17:40:34 [dubwai]

also how will be added info about A/B/C sides of release?

17:40:41 [dubwai]

into tags by Picard?

17:41:13 [kepstin-work]

I think picard will need an update for that to work.

17:43:11 [kepstin-work]

* kepstin-work plans to work on some updates to the style guide for sort names.

17:43:40 [dubwai]

yeah all new chages must work in picard

17:44:51 [reosarevok]

kepstin-work: talk to CallerNo6

17:45:49 [kepstin-work]

IMO, the alias sort name guidelines should actually say to reference the individual language style pages, and then a separate sort name guide for each language can be made.

17:46:11 [hawke_]

kepstin-work: http://musicbrainz.org/edit/17638285 seems like a reasonable method too, btw.

17:46:40 [hawke_]

or a reasonable extension I should say

17:47:24 [kepstin-work]

hmm, we should probably define a way to number CDs with songs split into multiple tracks for sub-parts as well.

17:47:35 [kepstin-work]

sometimes those get numbered in interesting ways on booklets

17:49:16 [hawke_]

kepstin-work: I wonder if we should wait for a month or so and collect as many different numbering schemes as people come up with

17:49:25 [hawke_]

and then figure out what’s best from that

17:49:35 [kepstin-work]

I've seen stuff like 1, 2, 3.1, 3.2, 3.3, 4 on CDs like that.

17:49:59 [kepstin-work]

might just want to ask about it on the style list, see what people come up with

17:51:39 [hawke_]

Hmm…I think I had come up with an idea that covered most stuff, can’t remember if I wrote it down though

17:53:18 [hawke_]

I wonder if I should remove track numbers from mediums with only one track.

17:53:35 [hawke_]

I lean towards yes.

17:53:43 [hawke_]

At least for non-CDs

17:53:45 [dubwai]

only problem as i know id3v2 tags can only store integers, so 3.2, A1, C4 you can't get for mp3 :-(

17:54:00 [dubwai]

integers for tracknumber field

17:54:13 [hawke_]

People still use MP3? ;-)

17:55:20 [kepstin-work]

* kepstin-work has been migrating his stuff to vorbis over time

17:55:30 [kepstin-work]

nice having flac originals for most of my stuff.

17:55:37 [kepstin-work]

saves having to re-rip things :)

17:57:21 [hawke_]

kepstin-work: What do you use for descreening your scans?

17:57:37 [bricas]

so, for this release http://musicbrainz.org/release/dca72382-06a2-4a4f-b477-6878af55ebc9 -- the tracklist for the vinyl could be A1, A2, B1, B2?

17:57:55 [kepstin-work]

hawke_: a combination of downscalling, gaussian blur, and G'MIC (with the edge-preserving flow filter)

17:58:31 [kepstin-work]

bricas: probably.

17:58:39 [hawke_]

bricas: Yes.

17:59:07 [hawke_]

kepstin-work: I was playing around with the 'descreen' filter, it gave nasty artifacts

17:59:18 [hawke_]

Also, working with 1200dpi scans gets memory-intensive. :-)

17:59:24 [kepstin-work]

hawke_: yeah, descreen isn't great

17:59:34 [kepstin-work]

* kepstin-work scans at 2400dpi because his scanner is stupid.

17:59:46 [kepstin-work]

now /that/ is memory-intensive :)

18:00:00 [kepstin-work]

my gimp is currently set to use 8gb memory (my desktop has 12gb total)

18:00:12 [kepstin-work]

with gimp's tile cache and swap on an ssd.

18:00:21 [reosarevok]

Now, /this/ is memory-intensive http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_grammar :p

18:00:36 [kepstin-work]

* kepstin-work doesn't even look

18:00:40 [reosarevok]

(I wish I had 8gb of memory on my head I could use for it :( )

18:00:41 [hawke_]

kepstin-work: Must be nice. ;-)

18:01:09 [kepstin-work]

hawke_: ram is ridiculously cheap right now. I could put 24gb in this box for $150 :/

18:01:26 [hawke_]

kepstin-work: I know it is.

18:01:50 [kepstin-work]

but honestly, I haven't managed to get to the point where 12gb isn't enough yet...

18:02:01 [kepstin-work]

so it would be a wasted $150.

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18:14:02 [hawke_]

Semi-sadly, my mobo only handles up to 8G

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18:38:50 [reosarevok]

* reosarevok sends one last RFC for the month and gives the list some rest :p

18:40:03 [Sekhmetouserapis]

if you have a minute, i'd like some opinions on whether to keep two different artists or to merge them : http://musicbrainz.org/edit/17623748

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18:41:44 [reosarevok]

* reosarevok knows nothing about this kind of music... hawke_ or brian__ might want to comment

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18:47:25 [hawke_]

Sekhmetouserapis: My opinion is to merge.

18:48:22 [Sekhmetouserapis]

even if they were used for distinct purposes by the artist ?

18:48:33 [hawke_]

Sekhmetouserapis: Not least because there were at least two different “Blind willie” artists

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18:50:58 [hawke_]

Sekhmetouserapis: also, that artist used a lot of different names

18:51:20 [hawke_]

6, it looks like?

18:51:42 [hawke_]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_Willie_McTell#Singles (“Moniker” column)

18:52:15 [Sekhmetouserapis]

I'd agree for Blind Willie Johnson, for example, who (at my knowledge ^^) have been printed as BWJ and Blind Willie but that was more as an aliases, here Blind Willie McTell use was closer to "noms de sc�ne"

18:52:24 [Sekhmetouserapis]

yes, he has a lot of pseudonyms

18:52:33 [CallerNo6]

kepstin-work: I'm on my way out the door, but I'll ping you later about sort names

18:52:56 [Sekhmetouserapis]

he used them to record at (more or less) at the same time for different labels (and that's why it's bugging me ^^ )

18:52:59 [kepstin-work]

CallerNo6: ok. If I don't respond, send me an email, please.

18:53:26 [hawke_]

Sekhmetouserapis: i don’t see a problem with using artist credits for it.

18:55:09 [Sekhmetouserapis]

the style guidelines are more along the lines of "aliases for spell check but different artists if the aliases are really different"

18:55:32 [hawke_]

Now, of course I am biased, I really would rather that we used ACs more and had a more “one person, one artist unless there’s a good reason not to” concept.

18:55:52 [hawke_]

Sekhmetouserapis: Was the music noticeably different under the different aliases?

18:56:23 [Sekhmetouserapis]

no, it was just a way to earn more for him, I think ^^

18:56:41 [hawke_]

That seems to be the most common reason we split artists, when the artist is really different.

18:58:20 [Sekhmetouserapis]

yeah, I understand the position (I usually add it under the aliases too)

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19:08:24 [hawke_]

what’s the difference between a 'change' edit type and a 'edit' edit type? (e.g. “change release group” but “edit release”)

19:09:36 [kepstin-work]

hawke_: the difference is that for one, someone put 'change' when naming it; and for the other, someone put 'edit'.

19:09:44 [hawke_]

heh

19:11:01 [reosarevok]

Isn't it that "Edit release group" edits the RG, but "Change release group" moves a release from one RG to another?

19:11:37 [kepstin-work]

huh, that could be it.

19:12:01 [hawke_]

that works for that, but not for the other 'change' edits

19:12:24 [hawke_]

But I guess then that there is no conceptual difference between 'change' and 'edit', it's just arbitrary. :-)

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19:13:37 [reosarevok]

Hi Greek nikki!

19:13:53 [reosarevok]

hawke_: what are the other "change" edits?

19:14:13 [reosarevok]

* reosarevok doesn't even know

19:14:42 [hawke_]

reosarevok: wikidoc, 'artist quality', 'release quality', 'track artist'

19:15:07 [nikki]

hi estonian reosarevok :P

19:15:18 [kepstin-work]

well, track artist makes sense for 'change'

19:15:22 [reosarevok]

So, two deprecated ones, one barely used and one restricted

19:15:30 [kepstin-work]

but the other two should be edit, imo.

19:15:33 [reosarevok]

* reosarevok bets on "nobody even noticed"

19:15:56 [hawke_]

probably

19:16:27 [hawke_]

just doing edit searches, trying to figure out if there's rhyme or reason to where I should be looking for edit types.

19:16:44 [hawke_]

not helpful: short multiselect with a lot of options.

19:17:33 [hawke_]

So, thinking about vinyl track numbers…

19:17:49 [hawke_]

for singles, should it be 'A' and 'B' consistently?

19:18:02 [hawke_]

or whatever's printed?

19:18:10 [Sekhmetouserapis]

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19:18:26 [hawke_]

Thinking of the old releases where it was part of the cat. no. which was different each side

19:18:38 [hawke_]

e.g. 8326-A, 8326-B

19:18:49 [hawke_]

rather than saying 'side A'

19:20:12 [hawke_]

and for those that do say 'side A' and 'side B' ….

19:20:17 [warp]

hawke_: right now you can do whatever you want, we have no style guidelines yet :)

19:20:33 [hawke_]

warp: I know, I’m just sounding out opinions

19:22:40 [hawke_]

…anyway, for those that do say 'side A' and 'side B' and have just one track per side

19:22:53 [hawke_]

should they be "numbered" A and B or A1 and B1?

19:24:00 [kepstin-work]

warp: he's thinking about what would go into such a style guide if it was written :)

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19:30:31 [CatCat]

wait. if we can do weird thing like this, and have no track what so ever

19:30:49 [CatCat]

does that mean we can have o track now?

19:30:56 [CatCat]

http://musicbrainz.org/edit/17638285 like a tracknumber be sero

19:31:01 [CatCat]

lets test it

19:31:02 [reosarevok]

A tracknumber can be zero

19:31:12 [reosarevok]

But it will still mess with discIDs etc

19:31:35 [kepstin-work]

A release with a discid still can't have an extra track 0 added for a pregap track.

19:32:48 [CatCat]

test artist is useless now becasue all the releases are gone

19:33:22 [nikki]

test on the test server then

19:34:01 [CatCat]

* CatCat lazy

19:34:21 [CatCat]

besides isn't test always different than live now? i thoguht it was edited always

19:34:28 [CatCat]

hi nikki, how is your holiday?

19:35:37 [CatCat]

jep it's gone

19:35:59 [nikki]

quite dangerous so far :P

19:36:24 [nikki]

it seems people in crete don't walk anywhere, if they did, they'd realise their pavements are awful

19:37:17 [kepstin-work]

* kepstin-work reminds you not to walk on the 'pavement' if you ever come to north america; you want to use the 'sidewalk' here ;)

19:37:46 [reosarevok]

kepstin-work, you have those?

19:37:55 [reosarevok]

I thought North Americans only drove anyway

19:37:56 [reosarevok]

:p

19:38:01 [nikki]

been there done that :P

19:38:07 [nikki]

almost got run over there too

19:38:26 [nikki]

although that was because I couldn't figure out how the crossings work

19:38:28 [reosarevok]

nikki: done that?

19:38:30 [reosarevok]

Walk on the pavement?

19:38:31 [kepstin-work]

* kepstin-work doesn't drive that often, unless he's going between cities.

19:38:41 [kepstin-work]

reosarevok: well, she did say she almost got run over :)

19:38:46 [reosarevok]

That's true

19:46:58 [hawke_]

nikki: “how the crossings work”? is there more to it than “walk across when you’re not going to get hit”?

19:47:36 [nikki]

hawke_: here in europe, you press a button and then the traffic stops. the one I was trying to use had a button but the traffic never stopped

19:47:36 [reosarevok]

hawke_: well, there's supposed to be a "the cars will stop for you" component, isn't it?

19:47:46 [Leftmost]

I'm from North America and didn't own a car until Monday.

19:47:47 [reosarevok]

Pffft

19:47:50 [reosarevok]

"here in Europe"

19:47:52 [Leftmost]

And I took the bus to work this morning.

19:48:07 [reosarevok]

Here in Europe, you press a button and the traffic never stops

19:48:18 [hawke_]

what reosarevok said. :-)

19:48:20 [reosarevok]

(or rather, it stops in the same time as if you hadn't pressed9

19:48:21 [nikki]

reosarevok: ok ok, in the uk and germany at least :P

19:48:25 [reosarevok]

*)

19:48:30 [reosarevok]

* reosarevok is not sure what the buttons are for

19:48:39 [reosarevok]

To give hyperactive people something to do while they wait I guess

19:48:40 [hawke_]

it’s actually about a 25% chance that the button does anything at all

19:48:56 [hawke_]

sometimes it will make it so that the 'walk' signal comes on when the cars are stopping anyway

19:49:07 [nikki]

reosarevok: I imagine the idea is that there's no point stopping traffic for pedestrians when there aren't any

19:49:08 [hawke_]

occasionally it will make the light come on and stop traffic

19:49:22 [hawke_]

that's almost always only when there's no intersection, just a standalone crossing

19:49:29 [nikki]

whether it works like that is another matter

19:49:33 [hawke_]

of which I’ve seen one in my life

19:49:34 [reosarevok]

nikki: that sounds like it would mess with the calculated traffic flow on intersections

19:49:45 [reosarevok]

I mean, isn't it all maths?

19:50:01 [reosarevok]

* reosarevok thought it all worked with calculations and estimations of what allows more cars to move and stuff

19:50:06 [nikki]

I dunno. the uk ones I know of stop all the traffic

19:50:24 [reosarevok]

(and the button was there to give you a sensation of "I did something")

19:50:48 [kepstin-work]

* kepstin-work notes that aside from a few intersections with broken buttons, they do actually stop the opposing traffic in canada.

19:51:05 [CatCat]

in norway too

19:51:15 [kepstin-work]

(not all traffic, just opposing traffic - most corners have two buttons, one for each direction)

19:51:25 [CatCat]

crete? like kreta? like where the minoans were from?!

19:51:27 [ianmcorvidae]

it varies a lot depending where you are in the US

19:51:28 [CatCat]

:O oo wow

19:51:47 [reosarevok]

that just sounds like a pain

19:51:53 [ianmcorvidae]

here in MA it's totally different than in AZ (well, it may just be that the west vs. the east is different)

19:52:02 [reosarevok]

Isn't it easier to just give standard intervals to them and let them work?

19:52:05 [ianmcorvidae]

I mean, it still always comes down to "press the button, wait for the light"

19:52:15 [CatCat]

ianmcorvidae: yea

19:52:23 [CatCat]

it is like that here

19:52:37 [ianmcorvidae]

some places do that, but there's not enough pedestrians for it to be worth doing the pedestrian part of the cycle every time, if it stops much traffic

19:52:48 [reosarevok]

Oh, ok

19:53:00 [ianmcorvidae]

here in amherst there's a unified pedestrian chunk, where all the pedestrians go (whichever corner to whichever other corner)

19:53:02 [reosarevok]

I guess it makes sense as a "if you press, we'll actually open the shit at some point"

19:53:12 [ianmcorvidae]

clearly when there's no pedestrians it's silly to do that, it'd just mean everyone is stopped :P

19:53:14 [reosarevok]

Just not as a "press to stop the traffic!"

19:53:17 [ianmcorvidae]

yeah

19:53:27 [reosarevok]

(which seems to be what nikki is talking about)

19:53:28 [ianmcorvidae]

in tucson it's just that you get the light when the corresponding car direction is green

19:53:38 [ianmcorvidae]

I don't know why they expect you to press the button, there :P

19:53:44 [nikki]

reosarevok: I mean press to stop the traffic at some point

19:53:46 [reosarevok]

But they still have them?

19:53:50 [hawke_]

ianmcorvidae: Likewise

19:54:13 [CatCat]

nikki: you didn't answer me, crete like the minoans?

19:54:21 [CatCat]

and later mykenes

19:54:24 [reosarevok]

I guess the company who builds traffic light buttons have influential friends

19:54:31 [reosarevok]

CatCat: there aren't a lot of Cretes :)

19:54:34 [ianmcorvidae]

there are also standalone crossings, and those (if they cross traffic at all, and aren't bridges over the traffic, which sometimes happens) are either just plain crosswalks (dangerous) or have lights/buttons

19:54:39 [nikki]

CatCat: I don't know anything about the minoans

19:54:42 [CatCat]

reosarevok: there are a lot of names thoguh

19:54:53 [nikki]

I assume it's the same crete you're thinking of though.

19:54:54 [CatCat]

I wasn't sure about the names, since it's called "kreta" here

19:55:00 [CatCat]

nikki: :O

19:55:07 [reosarevok]

ianmcorvidae: I've found crosswalks to be safer to a point

19:55:20 [reosarevok]

since when the light is green people much more often just go on without looking

19:55:31 [reosarevok]

When there's no light they *tend* to check

19:55:36 [ianmcorvidae]

hah

19:55:43 [ianmcorvidae]

yeah nobody checks *anywhere*, here

19:55:49 [CatCat]

uh if the man is green the cars are red to stop no?

19:55:56 [ianmcorvidae]

the light at least they feel obliged to stop if they notice

19:55:58 [CatCat]

you're supposed to check always thoguh

19:56:02 [reosarevok]

CatCat: most of the time

19:56:12 [reosarevok]

Sometimes they're yellow to pass only if nobody is crossing

19:56:17 [CatCat]

you people have weird traffic

19:56:32 [CatCat]

yellow measn "slow down red is comming"

19:57:11 [CatCat]

anyway, natta!

19:57:16 [CatCat]

early night or me

19:57:22 [reosarevok]

CatCat: if it's flashing, it means "be careful"

19:57:31 [reosarevok]

If it's just yellow, it means "red is coming"

19:57:41 [CatCat]

reosarevok: lights do not flach here :O

19:57:52 [CatCat]

unles the yellow flasheds and that measn that the sign is broken :P

19:57:56 [reosarevok]

heh

19:58:01 [reosarevok]

Natta! :)

19:58:05 [CatCat]

natta!

19:59:35 [hawke_]

reosarevok: Regarding artist intent: White Limozeen, by Dolly Parton.

19:59:51 [hawke_]

“spelled that way because neither could spell "limousine"”

20:00:12 [reosarevok]

huh

20:00:15 [hawke_]

(neither dolly parton nor her co-writer)

20:00:25 [hawke_]

Sounds like an explicit disclaimer of artist intent to me. :-)

20:00:29 [reosarevok]

* reosarevok guesses spelled is an American conjugation?

20:00:41 [hawke_]

as opposed to spelt?

20:00:50 [reosarevok]

* reosarevok is more used to spelt

20:00:51 [reosarevok]

Yeah

20:00:52 [hawke_]

Yes.

20:01:00 [kepstin-work]

* kepstin-work never sees spelt.

20:01:11 [reosarevok]

* reosarevok probably sees spelled more often

20:01:12 [kepstin-work]

my canadian spell-checking dictionary accepts either.

20:01:13 [hawke_]

spelt is a kind of wheat to me. :-)

20:01:30 [reosarevok]

But I didn't actually notice until now

20:01:43 [hawke_]

but I would understand it if someone said “the word is spelt like that”

20:02:11 [reosarevok]

The word is spelt, like that http://www.all-creatures.org/recipes/images/i-spelt.jpg !

20:02:15 [reosarevok]

:D

20:02:18 [nikki]

* nikki uses spelt

20:02:23 [nikki]

but I'm british so that's no surprise

20:02:42 [hawke_]

Sounds like british/euro uses both, generally

20:02:49 [hawke_]

according to some article on the topic. :-)

20:03:03 [hawke_]

http://grammarist.com/spelling/spelled-spelt/

20:03:26 [hawke_]

complete with graphs

20:04:23 [hawke_]

Anyway, back on topic: if an artist says “we spel(t|led) it that way because we can’t spell good”… :-)

20:05:27 [reosarevok]

You send them an adult school brochure?

20:05:31 [reosarevok]

8)

20:05:36 [hawke_]

yes.

20:05:43 [hawke_]

But what about the release? :-)

20:06:05 [reosarevok]

I don't know

20:06:22 [reosarevok]

I would be OK with it being fixed, although I guess someone would end up changing it back...

20:06:50 [hawke_]

I suppose it still comes down to consistency anyway

20:07:01 [hawke_]

If they screw up and then consistently use it that way…

20:07:27 [hawke_]

but then what if they screw up again and accidentally spell it right! Then it’s inconsistent and we need to correct the spelling! :-)

20:07:41 [reosarevok]

:D

20:08:04 [hawke_]

* hawke_ enters edits for Deaf Leopard, Leonard Skinnard, White Limousine, and Euthanasia.

20:08:22 [hawke_]

(not really)

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20:18:29 [noobie]

so weird :(

20:24:04 [hawke_]

kepstin-work: So which settings do you use for that G’MIC filter?

20:24:24 [kepstin-work]

the defaults, except I usually turn the iterations down

20:24:40 [kepstin-work]

* kepstin-work has found that running it on 300dpi with the defaults usually works fairly well

20:24:54 [kepstin-work]

sometimes it helps to do a 1px gaussian blur first

20:25:27 [hawke_]

So you scale→300dpi, blur, G’MIC?

20:26:08 [kepstin-work]

yeah

20:26:21 [kepstin-work]

if the image is really high-res, I'll do multiple blur/downscale steps

20:26:29 [kepstin-work]

and make sure you use linear filtering for downscale

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20:27:00 [kepstin-work]

(the fancier filters try to preserve the individual ink dots, when we're trying to remove them)

20:27:42 [ianmcorvidae]

* ianmcorvidae nominates this conversation for putting into a wiki page somewher :P

20:27:45 [ianmcorvidae]

somewhere*

20:28:44 [nikki]

* nikki looks confused at http://musicbrainz.org/edit/17640056

20:29:00 [kepstin-work]

maybe I'll do a screencast or something, that would be cool and hip, right?

20:29:25 [ianmcorvidae]

or write some text, that'd be useful :P

20:29:39 [hawke_]

Hmm. I find that doesn’t remove the posterization enough.

20:30:14 [reosarevok]

nikki: huh? someone should tell him images are not mandatory :p

20:30:25 [kepstin-work]

* kepstin-work does so.

20:30:29 [hawke_]

kepstin-work: it would be helpful, for sure.

20:31:07 [kepstin-work]

hawke_: I find that the process varies a lot based on the print quality of the thing you're scanning :/

20:31:16 [nikki]

reosarevok: feel free to :P

20:31:24 [kepstin-work]

some older stuff has bigger ink dots, and would need different settings in g'mic to look good.

20:31:53 [kepstin-work]

there's a 'patch-based smoothing' filter that gives different results that are sometimes more useful.

20:31:57 [hawke_]

kepstin-work: Eh, the stuff I’m working on now is less than a year old, so…

20:32:11 [hawke_]

maybe I should just upload as is and see if you have any recommendations

20:32:34 [kepstin-work]

hawke_: I can't really look at it now. in a few hours, maybe?

20:32:45 [hawke_]

kepstin-work: Sure.

20:33:09 [hawke_]

Actually I find that the xsane despeckler does a fantastic job relative to anything else

20:34:00 [kepstin-work]

despeckle filters typically don't take patterns in the image into account, I find they often distort the fine edges of small text

20:34:16 [hawke_]

So far I haven’t found anything that doesn’t.

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20:34:52 [hawke_]

The problem with xsane’s despeckle is that if I scan at higher-res, it won’t despeckle dust…

20:35:00 [kepstin-work]

hawke_: that's what the "edge-preserving" part of "edge-preserving flow" does :)

20:36:22 [kepstin-work]

* kepstin-work needs to find a good selection of 300, 400, 600, and maybe higher? images to play around with to see if he can make up a good process.

20:36:36 [ianweller]

kepstin-work: please do put the process you come up with on the wiki :D

20:36:37 [hawke_]

…and if I scan at lower-res where despeckle works better, then rotation doesn’t work as well.

20:36:41 [kepstin-work]

but yeah, I generally do different things for each release, depending on what the pictures are like

20:36:58 [nikki]

yay, someone changing the file extension to get around the caa file type restrictions

20:37:11 [ianmcorvidae]

heh

20:37:14 [ianmcorvidae]

did it work? :P

20:37:17 [kepstin-work]

e.g. releases with cell-shaded anime characters on the cover, you can overfilter quite a bit and it'll look decent.

20:37:29 [nikki]

well, it lets you upload it

20:37:29 [nikki]

but I voted no

20:37:37 [ianmcorvidae]

well, what I meant was

20:37:41 [ianmcorvidae]

did the thumbnailer work

20:37:48 [ianmcorvidae]

because if it did, we know it works for non-jpg

20:37:59 [nikki]

how do I find out?

20:38:00 [ianmcorvidae]

which is the primary thing that's been complained about re: multiple format upload, thus far

20:38:04 [ianmcorvidae]

is there a thumbnail?

20:38:05 [ianweller]

nikki: edit link?

20:39:59 [ianmcorvidae]

hm, no thumbnails (yet, anyway)

20:41:33 [kepstin-work]

the thumbnails have been kind of slow lately anyways, tho

20:41:51 [kepstin-work]

* kepstin-work checks if the release he uploaded last night has thumbnails yet...

20:42:22 [kepstin-work]

er, I actually don't. too busy. I'll do it later

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21:01:52 [brian__]

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21:04:28 [ryanakca]

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21:06:25 [ryanakca]

How can I merge two FreeDB entries into one as an import? (FreeDB has it as separate Disc 1, Disc 2, which to my understanding should be one release)

21:07:04 [symphonick]

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21:07:05 [reosarevok]

ryanakca: import disc 1 first

21:07:20 [reosarevok]

then, from the tracklist, you can search and import disc 2 from the "Add Disc" dialog

21:10:29 [symphonick]

Hey CallerNo6 & other classic guys

21:10:48 [reosarevok]

Not sure if CallerNo6 is around atm

21:10:52 [reosarevok]

But hi :)

21:11:01 [symphonick]

Oh hai :-)

21:11:08 [symphonick]

I've been thinking about language-specific normalizing

21:11:19 [symphonick]

eg. how to standardize "opus" etc

21:11:43 [symphonick]

should that be in the normal language guidelines

21:12:05 [symphonick]

or do we create extra CSG-language pages?

21:12:06 [SultS2]

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21:12:23 [reosarevok]

As long as it's not too long, I guess the normal language pages work

21:13:21 [reosarevok]

(in a subsection or whatever)

21:13:22 [symphonick]

hmm, I guess we just have to try

21:13:40 [reosarevok]

If they are too long they could always be put at Style/Language/Whatever/Classical I guess

21:14:06 [reosarevok]

Or if you feel it's useful to have them all together in one page so people can easily compare languages, that could be done too

21:14:39 [symphonick]

I'm afraid it will be too big

21:15:00 [reosarevok]

Maybe

21:15:07 [reosarevok]

I'd suggest to first write an example (for English)

21:15:15 [symphonick]

yeah

21:15:17 [reosarevok]

And then we can look at it and think what to do

21:15:24 [symphonick]

+1

21:16:05 [symphonick]

BTW i think this should be done before a CSG Track Title RFC

21:16:47 [reosarevok]

Sounds sensible

21:16:59 [reosarevok]

"follow these non-existing language guidelines" sounds problematic

21:17:00 [symphonick]

we can't put any language specific things in there

21:18:03 [kepstin-work]

we could add new Style/Language/<lang>/Whatever pages if we need detailed instructions on something per-language, I suppose...

21:19:17 [symphonick]

right. I'll see if I can find that "opus" thread from a while ago & get started

21:28:02 [hawke_]

symphonick: IMO it might be best as a part of CSG work style…

21:28:05 [ryanakca]

What would be the appropriate place to mark Kissin as the pianist for http://musicbrainz.org/release/f56b7b06-e041-457b-9931-0aa4c3e10689 ?

21:29:04 [symphonick]

hawke_: but it's not only for works, it's for tracks & recordings to

21:29:24 [symphonick]

too

21:29:34 [hawke_]

symphonick: Isn’t the idea that tracks and recordings will follow the work name (or at least that recordings will)

21:29:39 [reosarevok]

ryanakca: first of all, you can relate him to all recordings as piano performer

21:29:53 [symphonick]

hawke_: & it's different for all languages

21:30:10 [reosarevok]

ryanakca: Relate to... on the right, Kissin (name will be in Cyrillic I guess), "relate to recordings" in the dropdown

21:30:25 [reosarevok]

Oh, I see you added it to the release

21:30:29 [reosarevok]

To all recordings is better :)

21:31:43 [jmvanel]

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21:31:44 [reosarevok]

http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Classical/ too - in theory, the release artist should be "Robert Schumann; Evgeny Kissin"

21:32:02 [reosarevok]

But it's a bit of a pain to set right now without userscripts, I can do that change for you

21:33:02 [hawke_]

regarding CAA types: is “spine” any edge part, or just the back/outer edge?

21:33:40 [reosarevok]

* reosarevok would say "an edge with stuff on it" (so, not the just-plastic sides of a box)

21:33:44 [reosarevok]

But what do I know :)

21:34:22 [hawke_]

reosarevok: I have a release which is a folded cardboard sleeve with a slipcover

21:35:01 [reosarevok]

ryanakca: I've added him to the release artist now. also, this was Official, English, Latin - did the changes

21:35:42 [ryanakca]

reosarevok: Thanks :)

21:35:50 [ryanakca]

* ryanakca will try importing Disc2 from FreeDB now

21:36:02 [hawke_]

I think I’ll hold off in favor of a “slipcover” type which we might get in future.

21:37:37 [symphonick]

hawke_: tracks will follow what's printed, recordings will maybe follow works

21:38:07 [hawke_]

symphonick: That sounds good to me.

21:38:44 [symphonick]

+ my idea is that you can enter a pseudo-release to get work names on tracks if you really want

21:39:31 [symphonick]

found the English CSG thread: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/pre-RFC-Language-specific-CSG-Track-title-formatting-English-td4498488.html

21:43:13 [hawke_]

symphonick: I’d think tagger support would be the better way to do that, but regardless 'as on cover' is preferable to me.

21:43:23 [Relequestual]

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21:43:44 [hawke_]

I just think that they will be so inconsistently names that recordings will be better of just being named like the work

21:43:50 [hawke_]

*named

21:43:55 [Relequestual]

hi all. has the return data formats for release groups changed recently?

21:44:04 [hawke_]

hmm, gatefold stuff really complicates the CAA stuff.

21:44:20 [hawke_]

Relequestual: the 'release types' have.

21:44:55 [Relequestual]

hawke_: noticed the return data now contains primary and secondary

21:45:02 [hawke_]

Yep.

21:45:05 [symphonick]

hawke_: the downside is that you lose identification on the works/recordings list

21:45:29 [ianmcorvidae]

yeah, there's now primary/secondary, the old type field in the WS is done in terms of a mapping

21:45:33 [hawke_]

symphonick: recording AC should do that, no?

21:45:43 [ianmcorvidae]

which I think is "first secondary type unless there's no secondary type, in which case the primary type"

21:45:44 [Relequestual]

my api call wanted to get only albums and eps, but now it gets it based on the primary type, which seems to be mostly album

21:46:16 [Relequestual]

so is there a new param to only return the secondary types?

21:47:17 [reosarevok]

Hmmm

21:47:18 [hawke_]

Relequestual: albums and EPs are still the primary type.

21:47:31 [reosarevok]

You'd probably want to get only primary types which have no secondary type

21:47:32 [symphonick]

hawke_: yeah, I don't have particularly strong objections

21:47:35 [Relequestual]

but say i want to get only the studio albums

21:47:55 [reosarevok]

* reosarevok doesn't know how that is done but assumes it can be done

21:47:56 [kepstin-work]

Relequestual: then you want take only albums which do not have any secondary types set.

21:48:14 [Relequestual]

do i now have to do that on my side rather than with than in my api request?

21:50:03 [Relequestual]

so with the release type, according to the api, should that type not be for the secondary release type (if there is one)

21:50:15 [kepstin-work]

hmm. good question - I can't find a reference as to what (if any) new webservice attributes were added for this feature :/

21:50:23 [ianmcorvidae]

* ianmcorvidae code spelunking

21:50:53 [kepstin-work]

imo, a description of the webservice changes should have been included in the announcement :)

21:51:00 [Relequestual]

you would assume that if the options include album, ep and live, that if i set type as album, i don't want ep or live, but if album is primary and live is secondary, i get the live album

21:51:14 [Relequestual]

where are said anncouncements found btw?

21:51:24 [nikki]

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21:51:31 [kepstin-work]

Relequestual: official announcements are on the blog (also shown on the front page of musicbrainz.org now)

21:51:32 [reosarevok]

Announcements are in the blog, usually http://blog.musicbrainz.org/

21:51:36 [Relequestual]

ok cheers

21:52:04 [Relequestual]

I know it can't be helped, but this has now broken my dissertation project which I'm due to demo on friday, and I'm not allowed to change the source

21:52:15 [Relequestual]

haha

21:52:17 [Relequestual]

=/

21:52:41 [ianmcorvidae]

it looks like there is a way, I'm not doing well with my perl-fu

21:52:50 [ianmcorvidae]

to specify if you want primary vs. secondary

21:53:08 [ianmcorvidae]

though I guess "secondary type is unset" isn't one of the things I see here

21:53:08 [ianmcorvidae]

bah

21:53:25 [reosarevok]

:/

21:53:31 [reosarevok]

That seems like something we should have

21:53:31 [Relequestual]

as a param in the api call?

21:53:42 [Relequestual]

indeed

21:53:48 [ianmcorvidae]

yeah, it does

21:53:56 [ianmcorvidae]

looks like st:<something> says "secondary type of <something>"

21:54:00 [ianmcorvidae]

but there's nothing for "no secondary type"

21:54:14 [reosarevok]

Hmm

21:54:22 [reosarevok]

No st:unknown nor st:none?

21:55:00 [ianmcorvidae]

no, it has an "if there's a secondary type specified, then add 'st.secondary_type = any(<list of types>)' to the WHERE clause"

21:55:16 [ianmcorvidae]

which you can't put NULL into, I don't imagine

21:55:34 [kepstin-work]

well, someone should file a ticket for this issue, I guess.

21:55:59 [Relequestual]

I can do it at some point tomorrow

21:56:15 [Relequestual]

no problem

21:57:01 [Relequestual]

it would be from the api usage point of view as opposed to how the server deals with that aginst the database, is that acceptable as a ticket?

21:57:18 [reosarevok]

Yeah. Is that a search server ticket?

21:57:20 [reosarevok]

* reosarevok is not sure

21:57:27 [ianmcorvidae]

add it to MBS for now

21:57:51 [ianmcorvidae]

though I didn't think about the search-server side of it, I was under the impression you were getting albums/eps by artist

21:59:04 [ianmcorvidae]

and it should be fine to just mention the API, the backend stuff is an implementation question, the devs can figure that out :P

21:59:22 [Relequestual]

i am using the api... album is ambigious though. assumed meaning was "studio" when using in conjunction with live, ep, compliation etc, but now it just looks at the primary type, so returning all "album" type release types

22:00:06 [ianmcorvidae]

yeah; we possibly need more types -- for now album or ep with no secondary type is what you want

22:00:18 [brian__]

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22:00:21 [ianmcorvidae]

"studio" would be a good secondary type, but that would need to go through style

22:00:23 [hawke_]

Relequestual: It kind of was, because any other type overrode the base album type

22:01:44 [Relequestual]

ok cheers for the info. I'll file it as a ticket tomorrow. give me an interesting talking points in my dissertation defence presentation / qna on friday hahaha

22:02:03 [ianmcorvidae]

hah

22:02:21 [Relequestual]

it's not drastic, just means my indexing takes... up to 10 times as long...

22:02:22 [ianmcorvidae]

there are older data dumps, you could possibly set up a server mirror with a pre-schema-change dataset

22:02:38 [ianmcorvidae]

or do that, I guess :P

22:03:15 [Relequestual]

haha I don't have the space online for that, running it live

22:08:54 [reosarevok]

* reosarevok disappears for the day

22:08:57 [reosarevok]

Enjoy y'all

22:17:50 [SopR_M]

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22:18:14 [SopR_M]

Go#love22

22:18:21 [SopR_M]

Go#love22

22:18:35 [marco-oliveira]

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22:19:00 [SopR_M]

هاي وأحد

22:19:13 [SopR_M]

#love22

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22:23:35 [marco-oliveira]

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22:56:01 [pankkake]

ModBot needs an avatar!

22:57:19 [pankkake]

http://musicbrainz.org/doc/ModBot should removing recordings be added to its tasks?

22:59:40 [hawke_]

pankkake: How would that work?

23:00:18 [pankkake]

I mean, aren't recordings removed automatically already?

23:01:15 [pankkake]

from my experience they are

23:01:21 [hawke_]

No

23:01:25 [pankkake]

weird

23:01:45 [hawke_]

There’s no way for modbot to know whether something is a standalone recording (non-album track) or not

23:02:19 [pankkake]

I was watching a recording to remove it after it a medium was removed (because it was completely wrong), and when I refreshed the page, it was gone

23:03:15 [hawke_]

Strange

23:03:36 [pankkake]

http://musicbrainz.org/edit/17568383 see, first track has no recording now

23:04:43 [brian__]

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23:04:54 [pankkake]

but nothing about removing it in the edit history

23:05:42 [pankkake]

and adding *standalone* recordings is different than adding recordings, it's not an auto-edit

23:06:02 [iliketurtles]

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23:06:02 [pankkake]

(unless I'm mistaken?)

23:07:43 [hawke_]

I could well be mistaken too.

23:55:26 [ryanakca]

If I understand correctly, I need to wait for three people to vote in favour of my changes for them to take effect, or hope at least one person votes in favour of them within the next 14 days, lest they be dropped?

23:56:09 [marco-oliveira]

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23:56:27 [demosdemon]

ryanakca: most edits will automatically approve if there are no votes when it expires, but if the wait is 21 days then those fail it there are no votes

23:56:41 [demosdemon]

3 unanimous votes cause the edit to approve or reject immediately

23:57:09 [demosdemon]

if there's a mix of votes, then it's decided when the edit expires

23:57:28 [demosdemon]

equal yes and no fails, more yes than no passes