IRC log of musicbrainz on 2012-07-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:12:55 [hawke_1]
Thanks for making me feel inadequate, reosarevok.
00:13:06 [reosarevok]
huh?
00:14:27 [hawke_1]
I only have 28k…which seems like a lot to me.
00:14:50 [reosarevok]
It is
00:14:58 [reosarevok]
A lot of mine wouldn't happen if I wasn't an autoeditor
00:15:27 [hawke_1]
You have more than 10× that though
00:15:31 [reosarevok]
Also, I have a lot of "change artists for all recordings of this release" lately
00:15:46 [reosarevok]
Which are relatively fast edits to do and add up fast
00:16:38 [hawke_1]
Also I’ve been here a lot longer than you. :-)
00:16:50 [hawke_1]
making your edit rate even more insane
00:16:56 [reosarevok]
(open all recordings, quickly ctrl+pgdn through the list clicking edit in all of them, ctrl+pgup back opening the artist credit editor, ctrl+pgdn back pasting the stuff in copyable artist credits, ctrl+pgup one last time entering all edits)
00:18:53 [reosarevok]
(same applies to stuff like editing dates for relationships in all of them)
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00:57:39 [derr84]
It would be good to specify the language of review...
00:59:23 [reosarevok]
huh?
00:59:32 [reosarevok]
Oh, in "has a review at" links?
00:59:39 [reosarevok]
And of biography, huh
00:59:55 [reosarevok]
Not necessarily a bad idea, that
01:01:59 [ianmcorvidae]
I think it requires a schema change, but it's a good idea I think
01:03:07 [ianmcorvidae]
it's in the same vein as allowing entities (artists, releases, works, etc.) on relationship attributes
01:03:45 [ianmcorvidae]
which is nice for some cases, like when groups are composed of members from several other groups, so you could mark it as "<person> is member of <supergroup> via association with <main group>" or whatever
01:04:19 [ianmcorvidae]
(also nice if we eventually move instruments to be entities rather than a gigantic tree in the link_attribute_type table...)
01:11:33 [Freso]
+1 to enable setting language for URL entities (whoever implements it: remember to use hreflang too!).
01:14:17 [ianmcorvidae]
oh, putting it on the URL entities themselves is a good idea, actually
01:14:51 [ianmcorvidae]
avoids bringing in language as a quasi-entity if we make entities attribute-able
01:15:47 [ianmcorvidae]
(still a schema change though)
01:15:48 [Freso]
Heh.
01:16:01 [Freso]
I've thought about proposing it for a few days now.
01:16:07 [ianmcorvidae]
make a ticket, yeah
01:16:13 [Freso]
Yeah.
01:16:20 [Freso]
As I've said, a few days now...
01:16:28 [Freso]
A few days more and I'll do it.
01:16:47 [Freso]
Feel free to beat me to it. ;)
01:16:50 [ianmcorvidae]
:P
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01:28:41 [ianweller]
can i get one more vote (or an approve) on these? http://ur1.ca/9qn31
01:30:43 [ianmcorvidae]
* ianmcorvidae voting
01:35:58 [ianweller]
ugh, i just tried entering an edit i entered two days ago
01:59:07 [derr84]
is a cover version every recording except the first one? I mean songs...
02:05:40 [derr84]
an artist A recorded a song X. later she rerecorded this song with an artist B. is it a cover version? :)
02:14:29 [derwin]
yes.
02:14:41 [derwin]
well, it depends on how the re-record is credited.
02:14:52 [derwin]
I think is the right answer?
02:17:14 [derwin]
my girlfriend's opinion is
02:17:26 [derwin]
new artistic entity = "cover"
02:17:38 [derwin]
so.. singer does solo version of a song he wrote in a band = cover
02:17:54 [derwin]
artistic entity does a new version credited "with" someone else = cover
02:18:11 [derwin]
artistic entity does new version with new members due to lineup change = not cover
02:18:25 [derwin]
even imo with 100% replacement
02:18:40 [derwin]
I wonder what the actual rule is...
02:19:32 [ianmcorvidae]
there isn't really an "actual rule"
02:19:48 [derwin]
there may be a proposed guideline
02:20:12 [ianmcorvidae]
I think there was talk some months ago but I haven't heard anything in quite a while on the topic, and nothing came of the discussion AFAIK
02:23:06 [derwin]
is there a "version" AR seperate from "cover"
02:23:14 [derwin]
like "don't stand so close to me '88" or whatever it's called
02:23:21 [derwin]
or the dance versions where they update a dance track
02:23:48 [derwin]
original artist, same.. song.. on some level.. but not really a.. remix..
02:23:56 [ianmcorvidae]
I don't know if there's a version AR other than that, but there is linking to the same work at least
02:24:11 [derwin]
but they're not.. really.. the same work?
02:24:12 [ianmcorvidae]
I guess there's some sort of "other version" AR but it may be deprecated
02:24:55 [derwin]
for like
02:25:03 [derwin]
"ringfinger" <> "twist" ?
02:25:16 [derwin]
where it's twist on the demo and slightly different?
02:25:45 [derwin]
like, the music and lyrics are different, sorta can't be the same work
02:25:48 [derwin]
but.. is.
02:27:01 [ianweller]
are there any examples of weekly radio shows being added to musicbrainz?
02:27:11 [ianweller]
like, official recordings of them, put online
02:28:15 [derwin]
hrm, I wonder, you could look for solid steel
02:28:21 [ianweller]
* ianweller wonder if conetnt of that nature is even in the scope of musicbrainz
02:28:21 [derwin]
except those I think may be issued on some media
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02:28:46 [ianmcorvidae]
I'd say it's in-scope but hard to define how to add it
02:29:26 [ianweller]
my specific thought was "wait wait... don't tell me!", which (in general) records each show live weekly
02:30:21 [ianweller]
npr distributes them as a single file, so i would maybe suggest a one-track digital media release titled something like "2012-06-30: Chase Auditorium, Chicago, IL, US"
02:30:23 [voiceinsideyou]
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02:30:46 [ianweller]
but who is the artist, what type of release is it, etc etc i don't know for sure
02:31:13 [ianweller]
and perhaps it would be better to prepend the date and location with the title of the program, too
02:36:09 [ianweller]
(heh, except that's not actually where this show was recorded.)
02:37:33 [ianweller]
hmm, NPR releases them both in "single file" form and also in separated files.
02:39:04 [ianweller]
maybe i'll draft up an email and send it to the style list.
02:42:22 [ianweller]
fuck, why are there two NPRs in the database
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04:10:07 [CallerNo6]
* CallerNo6 is on a beer bottle. This is what passes for exciting in his life.
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04:10:27 [CallerNo6]
http://tallbikeposse.org/wp/?p=663
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05:42:24 [derr84]
could it be on MB? - https://p.twimg.com/AxH8yuPCMAEiTSL.jpg
05:43:53 [derr84]
:D
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08:02:14 [ianweller]
any thoughts? http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Ianweller/Radio_program_style
08:02:24 [ianweller]
that's an early draft, really only the things i've thought of are in there
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08:19:15 [ianweller]
ugh i keep getting logged out of the musicbrainz wiki
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08:37:05 [ianweller]
reosarevok: hey, you're around. can i get your opinions on a style proposal before i send it out?
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08:38:02 [ianweller]
it's not really fleshed out as well as it should be, i think, wanted to see what you think should be added or changed
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08:42:15 [reosarevok]
Guess so
08:42:32 [ianweller]
reosarevok: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Ianweller/Radio_program_style
08:42:49 [ianweller]
(there's still a question of whether or not radio programs are in musicbrainz's scope... i would say they are)
08:43:32 [reosarevok]
ocharles would probably agree, since he once said our scope was "audio waves" or something like that
08:43:38 [reosarevok]
(and I don't mind them either)
08:43:44 [ianweller]
hah
08:43:55 [reosarevok]
Hmmm
08:44:03 [reosarevok]
I was expecting them to be standalone recordings
08:44:14 [ianweller]
well, some are, and some aren't
08:44:32 [ianweller]
for NPR's programs, they only distribute online in separate recordings
08:45:28 [ianweller]
well, some they distribute in single recordings, through their podcast system
08:45:44 [ianweller]
"wait wait" they do, but "all things considered" they don't
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08:51:28 [reosarevok]
Hmm
08:51:41 [reosarevok]
Well, I don't know a lot about radio so you probably know it better than me
08:52:10 [ianweller]
sure
08:52:12 [reosarevok]
I would consider adding them as "Other + Radio (+ Live)" though
08:52:20 [ianweller]
do we have a 'radio' type?
08:52:27 [reosarevok]
Well, not yet, but isn't this a proposal :p
08:52:31 [ianweller]
true
08:52:34 [ianweller]
does that require a schema change?
08:52:37 [reosarevok]
Nope
08:52:41 [reosarevok]
Not even a release
08:52:42 [ianweller]
well, shit, i'll do that then
08:52:57 [reosarevok]
Just one line of SQL + kicking the caches
08:52:59 [ianweller]
reosarevok: how do i specifically say "we need this edit type added for this proposal"? or do i do that in the ticket
08:53:14 [reosarevok]
Just add it as part of the ticket
08:53:17 [reosarevok]
(and the RFC)
08:53:18 [ianweller]
ok
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08:53:29 [reosarevok]
And I'll add an MBS ticket for it if/when this passesd
08:53:30 [reosarevok]
*-d
08:53:45 [ianweller]
ok
08:57:24 [ianweller]
reosarevok: any other thoughts before i send this out as a first draft?
08:57:42 [reosarevok]
Hmm
08:57:53 [reosarevok]
For studio recordings, would you enter the studio as location?
08:58:10 [reosarevok]
Radio X Studio, City, State, Country?
08:58:21 [reosarevok]
(if yes, maybe add one example of it)
08:58:35 [ianweller]
i'm not sure if i would
08:58:37 [ianweller]
should we?
08:58:51 [ianweller]
those are a lot less likely to change than the live ones
08:59:03 [reosarevok]
I don't know, but either do and example it or don't and say it
08:59:03 [reosarevok]
:)
08:59:10 [ianweller]
ok :)
08:59:43 [ianweller]
done
08:59:47 [reosarevok]
And you don't say anything about label
09:00:04 [reosarevok]
Which might be blank, or the radio channel, I guess
09:00:38 [ianweller]
oh yeah
09:00:42 [reosarevok]
And release date, which for stuff that's made available just when it finishes can be recording date I guess, but is that always the case?
09:00:45 [reosarevok]
* reosarevok has no idea
09:00:47 [ianweller]
um
09:00:56 [ianweller]
for all of these, the download or streaming is usually available the day of
09:00:58 [reosarevok]
(well, nobody will know about "always", but is that usually the case)
09:01:03 [ianweller]
yeah.
09:01:06 [ianweller]
i'll note that
09:01:09 [reosarevok]
Cool
09:01:23 [ianweller]
unsure what to do about label... i'd say that would be more for who is responsible for distributing it online
09:01:33 [ianweller]
which in general is the syndicator
09:01:59 [reosarevok]
I think the rest is OK
09:02:03 [reosarevok]
And I don't know
09:02:14 [ianweller]
i think i'll go with what i said :)
09:02:57 [reosarevok]
* reosarevok wonders if syndication is common outside the US too
09:03:34 [reosarevok]
(in Spain I think programs are simply shared in a network of local samely-branded stations)
09:03:58 [reosarevok]
(I would be very surprised to see a program by brand-name X outside of a brand-name X station)
09:04:27 [ianweller]
in the US, there are many radio stations that are called public radio stations
09:04:35 [ianweller]
they get content from multiple syndicates, or can produce content themselves
09:04:47 [ianweller]
the two most popular syndicates are national public radio and american public media
09:05:18 [reosarevok]
So the NPR is not a series of stations called NPR (Insert Place Name Here)?
09:05:25 [ianweller]
correct
09:05:27 [ianweller]
most public radio stations call themselves an "NPR member station" -- they collect donations from their listeners, and pay for content from NPR with that money
09:05:36 [reosarevok]
Hmm, interesting
09:05:50 [ianweller]
they can be supported by a local institution -- for example, my local station, kansas public radio, is run by the university of kansa
09:05:53 [ianweller]
kansas*
09:06:12 [ianweller]
and they run a different programming schedule than radio kansas, based from hutchinson community college, about 3 hours away
09:06:29 [ianweller]
and they run a different programming schedule than high plains public radio, based in western kansas (somewhere)
09:07:09 [ianweller]
and that's just public radio. commercial radio is an entirely different ball game
09:07:19 [ianweller]
but often doesn't have nationally-broadcast programs like public radio stations
09:11:11 [reosarevok]
:)
09:11:12 [reosarevok]
I see
09:11:34 [reosarevok]
I think in Spain all the name-branded radios run the same basic schedule, with some slots for local content
09:11:40 [reosarevok]
(which obviously change)
09:12:02 [reosarevok]
So I guess there the brand would be the equivalent of your syndicator
09:12:23 [ianweller]
yeah.
09:12:36 [ianweller]
hmm, just realized some shows have show numbers
09:13:01 [ianweller]
adding that to the release title...
09:14:55 [ianweller]
reosarevok: does this look right? "2012-06-30: A Prairie Home Companion, number 1348: Koussevitzky Music Shed, Lenox, MA, USA"
09:15:01 [ianweller]
specifically the "number 1348" part
09:15:27 [reosarevok]
I might just say "A Prairie Home Companion 1348" or "A Prairie Home Companion, No. 1348"
09:15:33 [reosarevok]
Or #1348
09:15:40 [reosarevok]
But none of those look wrong per se
09:15:42 [ianweller]
is there any currently existing style guideline for numbers
09:15:46 [ianweller]
or am i just dreaming it
09:17:15 [reosarevok]
Not exactly
09:17:25 [reosarevok]
But there is http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Titles/Series_numbers
09:17:42 [ianweller]
i'm gonna go with #1234
09:18:15 [reosarevok]
But that doesn't apply to all, or you end like the guy who wanted to do stuff like turning "Series Name 1" into "Series Name, 1"
09:18:41 [reosarevok]
(wonder if he would have continued with turning "Series Name 2004" into "Series Name, 2004" :D
09:18:42 [reosarevok]
)
09:19:09 [ianweller]
doing mass changes without talking to someone first is absurd :P
09:20:53 [reosarevok]
Well, guidelines, you know!
09:20:53 [reosarevok]
:p
09:21:06 [ianweller]
:)
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09:43:46 [reosarevok]
pffft
09:43:47 [reosarevok]
http://musicbrainz.org/release/cf3e291b-bfd1-4725-9326-af9242580e98
09:43:56 [reosarevok]
Someone tell me what to do with all that
09:44:05 [reosarevok]
(all those Publisher credits)
09:44:42 [reosarevok]
Hmm, http://www.sicam.org.br/
09:44:48 [reosarevok]
Obviously not an artist-person then
09:46:15 [reosarevok]
* reosarevok removes it from works
09:47:13 [ianweller]
hmm
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09:48:00 [reosarevok]
At least from the Milhaud works
09:48:26 [reosarevok]
He was French, I honestly doubt the Brazilian publishing house is the main publisher for the works
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10:17:47 [ianweller]
* ianweller sends this out
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11:53:41 [murdos]
what cover art type would you use for the left part of this image: http://ia600609.s3dns.us.archive.org/mbid-d5488b8b-7a86-4bda-a66d-aa3ddd32d4a3/mbid-d5488b8b-7a86-4bda-a66d-aa3ddd32d4a3-1407889376.jpg ?
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11:55:29 [reosarevok]
Booklet maybe'
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14:55:23 [xplt]
hi! Should I vote down this edit: http://musicbrainz.org/edit/18188021 ?
14:57:27 [xplt]
AFAIR, someone here was against such "covert-arts" on Amazon...
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15:10:22 [reosarevok]
xplt: you certainly could
15:10:41 [reosarevok]
It would be nicer if you also cropped and uploaded a better version for this one to show him what we prefer
15:11:22 [reosarevok]
... or just use http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-YL55h0QYfpE/TsJ7uqvR92I/AAAAAAAABGU/b2blPqj8uG4/s1600/Raise%2BThe%2BDevil.jpg I guess
15:11:38 [reosarevok]
Although the color's not too good... wonder which one is closer to the real deal
15:12:11 [xplt]
reosarevok: I see... Thanks! :)
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16:29:46 [hrglgrmpf]
reosarevok: hi!
16:30:12 [reosarevok]
Hi :)
16:32:21 [hrglgrmpf]
what is your plan to reach conclusion on this Code of Botduct?
16:32:35 [reosarevok]
That is a very good question :p
16:32:58 [hrglgrmpf]
currently the only limit I have is 1000 edits per day
16:33:04 [reosarevok]
I think when we have some ideas of what the -devel people want (which seems to be more or less fine now)
16:33:12 [reosarevok]
We can move it to -users
16:33:16 [reosarevok]
And see if people disagree there
16:33:18 [hrglgrmpf]
I don't know if -devel is the right list
16:33:19 [hrglgrmpf]
yes
16:33:34 [hrglgrmpf]
can we have polls in the forums now?
16:33:40 [reosarevok]
I don't know
16:33:43 [hrglgrmpf]
it is mainly an issue for voters...
16:34:01 [hrglgrmpf]
so for power-users
16:34:13 [hrglgrmpf]
they should tell the bot-writers what limit they find useful
16:34:35 [hrglgrmpf]
the 1000 bots limit was suggested by murdos I think
16:34:45 [hrglgrmpf]
s/bots/edits/
16:35:00 [reosarevok]
Yeah
16:35:21 [hrglgrmpf]
you are a power-user too, so do you think there are too many bot edits, or what limit would you suggest?
16:35:22 [reosarevok]
The main issue is trying to avoid cases like a few days ago where more then 1/4th of the edit queue was open bot edits
16:35:40 [hrglgrmpf]
ah, the discogs-remove thing...
16:35:48 [hrglgrmpf]
yes, I have many of them left to vote for myself...
16:35:50 [reosarevok]
That, and all the others
16:36:01 [reosarevok]
(but yeah, discogs-remove was like half of that)
16:36:33 [hrglgrmpf]
what limit would you find useful?
16:36:55 [reosarevok]
Well, I wrote the one currently in the code (for open edits)
16:37:01 [reosarevok]
so I obviously agree with that one
16:37:15 [hrglgrmpf]
ok...
16:37:15 [reosarevok]
I guess a limit on autoedits per day would be sane too, and maybe 1k is fine?
16:37:34 [reosarevok]
(or 1k total per day, 1k to 1.5k open at the same time)
16:37:37 [reosarevok]
(dunno)
16:37:47 [reosarevok]
I expect more talk about that to come up in -users
16:38:14 [hrglgrmp1]
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hrglgrmp1 has joined #musicbrainz
16:40:07 [hrglgrmp1]
sorry, internet a little bit unstable...
16:40:18 [hrglgrmp1]
we need a limit for auto-edits for users that check all their subscription mails
16:41:15 [reosarevok]
<reosarevok> I guess a limit on autoedits per day would be sane too, and maybe 1k is fine?
16:41:15 [reosarevok]
<reosarevok> (or 1k total per day, 1k to 1.5k open at the same time)
16:41:15 [reosarevok]
<reosarevok> (dunno)
16:41:15 [reosarevok]
<reosarevok> I expect more talk about that to come up in -users
16:41:27 [reosarevok]
(dunno if you got that or not)
16:42:05 [hrglgrmp1]
I read the chatlogs :-)
16:46:26 [hrglgrmp1]
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16:46:46 [KRSCuan]
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16:46:55 [hrglgrmp1]
why are bots not allowed to vote by the way?
16:46:59 [hrglgrmp1]
I had a little thought of writing a bot that votes "no" (with good explanation) to certain edits (barcode mismatch when linking to ASINs)
16:47:02 [hrglgrmp1]
but I don't have too, so the rule is ok with me :-)
16:49:21 [hrglgrmp1]
it would be cool if you could post a mail to -users with a time limit (like 2 or 3 weeks), until it will become official
16:50:05 [hrglgrmp1]
otherwise it will hang in the air forever, and we will never have a guideline
16:51:16 [reosarevok]
Yeah
16:51:42 [reosarevok]
Well, half-yeah. Since it's not style or anything, we're asking for opinions rather than for a decision
16:51:56 [reosarevok]
So we could always be like "so, we're implementing it like this" anyway
16:52:05 [reosarevok]
But giving a date from the get-go avoids surprises :)
16:52:20 [hrglgrmp1]
yes, but we all know we need such a code of conduct
16:52:50 [hrglgrmp1]
yes... and without date a) nobody cares b) no decision is ever made
16:53:09 [hrglgrmp1]
if you give a date, somebody can still say "i object to this, lets delay it 2 weeks"
16:53:23 [hrglgrmp1]
or even if the conduct is official, it is no problem to change it with good reason
16:53:36 [reosarevok]
My point was more that if nobody cared, then we could just say "fine, so be it, we'll do it like that then"
16:53:41 [reosarevok]
But yeah
16:54:43 [reosarevok]
No real reason *not* to give it a date :)
17:01:25 [hrglgrmp1]
:-)
17:02:15 [Mineo]
hey reosarevok, did you get the memo I sent you?
17:03:15 [reosarevok]
Unsure
17:03:17 [reosarevok]
When?
17:03:35 [Mineo]
earlier today via freenodes memoserv
17:04:06 [Mineo]
I was asking for http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Soundtrack_Title_Style to be a redirect to the soundtrack style, not http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Specific_types_of_releases#Soundtracks
17:05:03 [reosarevok]
No
17:05:05 [reosarevok]
But done
17:05:11 [Mineo]
cool, thanks :-)
17:08:13 [hrglgrmpf]
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18:02:32 [derwin]
is there a link to the code of botduct
18:02:38 [derwin]
or would I have to be on the list?
18:03:46 [warp]
derwin: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Reosarevok/Code_of_Botduct
18:04:03 [warp]
derwin: that is the proposal for it from reosarevok.
18:04:42 [reosarevok]
Not only me, really, I was writing it as people debated in the devel IRC
18:04:44 [reosarevok]
But yeah
18:05:00 [ianmcorvidae]
that happens to be in reosarevok's user namespace, mostly :P
18:05:23 [warp]
reosarevok: well, you are its steward for now.
18:05:32 [warp]
I did not intend to imply that you wrote all of it.
18:05:34 [reosarevok]
Guess so
18:05:41 [reosarevok]
Man, why do I keep on piling responsibilities :p
18:11:40 [navap]
CallerNo6: ping
18:13:28 [CallerNo6]
navap: pong
18:14:37 [navap]
I saw you added some NGS history info
18:15:02 [navap]
I'd much rather see that blurb added to the bottom of the DB schema page
18:15:11 [navap]
And leave the NGS pages as redirects to the schema page
18:15:34 [reosarevok]
navap: I don't think I agree anymore
18:15:45 [reosarevok]
I mean, it was useful before, when NGS was "the new thing"
18:16:04 [reosarevok]
But the few times people ask "NGS?" lately, they want to know what we mean, not the current DB schema
18:16:08 [reosarevok]
(which has changed since then)
18:16:28 [reosarevok]
(and what we mean is, the set of changes released in May 2011)
18:16:34 [navap]
hm
18:16:45 [CallerNo6]
exactly. i wanted to define "ngs" for newish editors
18:16:54 [CallerNo6]
(and put it in context)
18:18:27 [CallerNo6]
I wouldn't mind doing that on a glossary page. The only problem is, a wiki search for NGS will go straight to the schema page rather than listing other hits.
18:21:55 [ianmcorvidae]
we can change the redirect to an entry in a glossary or something, perhaps, or to a specific section of a page
18:22:11 [ianmcorvidae]
and put a link to the full page on the schema
18:22:19 [ianmcorvidae]
I think that'd be my thought on it
18:22:59 [reosarevok]
ianmcorvidae: huh, if you were to change the redirect, why not just do it into the terminology page for NGS?
18:23:25 [navap]
Which terminology page?
18:24:48 [reosarevok]
The one CallerNo6 was supposed to be writing IIRC
18:25:07 [CallerNo6]
* CallerNo6 hangs his head in shame
18:26:13 [navap]
Do you mean a page that describes each of the entities? That kind of terminology?
18:27:40 [reosarevok]
I mean a page that describes the changes
18:27:50 [reosarevok]
(the specific NGS changes)
18:28:20 [reosarevok]
So that if someone wants to know "so what is/was this NGS thing" they can
18:28:21 [navap]
Don't the NGS release notes already do that?
18:28:34 [navap]
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Server_Release_Notes/20110516
18:28:53 [reosarevok]
Hmmm
18:29:00 [reosarevok]
Then maybe that's what we should be redirecting to?
18:30:17 [navap]
I think I'd be okay with that
18:30:18 [CallerNo6]
I thought I gave a good overview of what "NGS" is. I don't really care where we put it, as long as it's searchable on the wiki.
18:30:46 [navap]
CallerNo6: I agree. I liked how you mentioned that pre-NGS/post-NGS bit
18:32:58 [CallerNo6]
* CallerNo6 looks at http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/MusicBrainz_Terminology and despairs
18:33:10 [reosarevok]
:D
18:33:23 [reosarevok]
Was it because of my redirect? Sorry :)
18:34:04 [reosarevok]
* reosarevok tries to write /Style/Classical/Language/Estonian
18:34:13 [reosarevok]
Not that anyone except me would use it right now, I guess, but...
18:34:22 [reosarevok]
At least it would probably remind me to be consistent :p
18:37:39 [ianmcorvidae]
it's at least marginally more useful than my Server Internationalisation/Esperanto page :P
18:42:01 [reosarevok]
v6lur: ping
18:42:12 [v6lur]
pong
18:43:29 [reosarevok]
Do you happen to have any idea of whether there is a more standard style for music keys in Estonian?
18:43:47 [reosarevok]
* reosarevok keeps finding, for example, both "re-minoor" and "re minoor"
18:44:10 [reosarevok]
(and we probably should specify one of the two options, even though I'll prefer -duur and -moll)
18:44:20 [v6lur]
hm
18:45:08 [v6lur]
* v6lur goes search
18:45:46 [reosarevok]
Also both "la mažoor" and "La mažoor", while the key for "x minoor" seems to be almost always lowercased
18:54:47 [|Frederik]
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18:55:15 [|Frederik]
There's a disc id which is attached to two different releases, one of them is wrong. How can I remove it?
18:56:53 [v6lur]
so
18:56:56 [v6lur]
http://www.eki.ee/dict/qs/index.cgi?Q=*m%5Bai%5D%5B%C5%BEn%5D*oor&F=A&C02=1&C03=1&C05=1
18:57:05 [CallerNo6]
* CallerNo6 ponders http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Article_size#A_rule_of_thumb
18:57:06 [v6lur]
this is how the guys at EKI write them
18:57:14 [v6lur]
(ignore "luminofoor :P )
18:57:36 [reosarevok]
|Frederik: go the the DiscID tab in the release where it's wrong
18:57:40 [reosarevok]
And press Remove
18:58:07 [reosarevok]
v6lur, awesome, thanks :D
18:58:23 [v6lur]
so -- with dash, not space, and first letter of duur/mažoor uppercase, moll/minoor lowercase
18:58:26 [reosarevok]
What's this page exactly? A doubts dictionary?
18:58:39 [v6lur]
it's THE dictionary
18:58:40 [|Frederik]
reosarevok, thanks! I guess it's "normal" that it is not executed immediately but needs approval?
18:58:52 [reosarevok]
|Frederik: yeah, that's the case for most edits
18:58:52 [v6lur]
almost like Duden for German
18:59:04 [reosarevok]
* reosarevok bookmarks
18:59:21 [v6lur]
(but of course they say that it is all recommendations i there)
18:59:37 [v6lur]
in
18:59:39 [v6lur]
*
18:59:58 [reosarevok]
Sure, sure
19:00:11 [reosarevok]
Only the Spanish and a few others actually go fully prescriptivist :p
19:07:01 [v6lur]
where are you writing it? not on wiki yet, apparently :P (or at least not saved yet)
19:08:15 [JoeLlama]
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19:09:49 [reosarevok]
Not saved yet
19:30:46 [reosarevok]
v6lur: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Reosarevok/Style/Classical/Language/Estonian
19:30:53 [reosarevok]
Go destroy my assumptions :p
19:31:43 [reosarevok]
(no, I haven't tried to translate it. well, I have thought about it, seen I lack the basic vocabulary and stopped)
19:33:08 [v6lur]
looks good to me... mind if i translate it?
19:33:34 [reosarevok]
Wasn't that the idea all along? :)
19:33:42 [v6lur]
:D
19:34:10 [reosarevok]
I guess I should actually write one of these for Spanish, hih
19:34:13 [reosarevok]
*huh even
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19:48:08 [ocharles]
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19:48:55 [v6lur]
reosarevok: there, i fix- *ahem* translated it
19:49:07 [v6lur]
i changed the bit about quotes a bit
19:49:35 [v6lur]
EKI recommends using „” (although „“ are widely used as well)
19:49:49 [reosarevok]
Hmm
19:50:07 [reosarevok]
If we're going to mandate anything that's not "" I'd go for the most correct ones
19:50:29 [reosarevok]
* reosarevok just copied the ones from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-English_usage_of_quotation_marks :)
19:51:26 [reosarevok]
Are any of the two easily entered with an Estonian keyboard?
19:51:33 [v6lur]
no
19:51:44 [reosarevok]
aww
19:52:10 [v6lur]
unless the user has custom keyboard layout
19:52:14 [v6lur]
(like i do)
19:53:19 [reosarevok]
So, not really
19:53:26 [reosarevok]
Well, I guess we should still mandate them
19:53:39 [reosarevok]
But in that case, I'd just mandate the most correct ones for sure
19:53:52 [reosarevok]
(at least when people ignore it, we'll know what to change it too...)
19:54:20 [reosarevok]
Might be interesting to add some info about that to the general http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Language/Estonian , really
20:01:13 [reosarevok]
Probably just recommending/preferring it instead of actually mandating it, there? dunno
20:01:26 [ijabz]
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20:01:33 [v6lur]
reosarevok: i added the source to my claim that „” is the pair preferred by EKI :)
20:02:07 [v6lur]
(of course, anyony [with access to estonian books] could just take a look in their publications :P )
20:07:13 [v6lur]
btw, i was wondering the other day: shouldn't wiki use typographical quote marks and other such niceties?
20:07:33 [reosarevok]
Yes
20:07:37 [reosarevok]
It should
20:07:42 [CallerNo6]
as the saying goes, "thanks for volunteering!"
20:07:47 [reosarevok]
But we're all a bunch of lazy bastards
20:07:51 [v6lur]
:D
20:07:53 [reosarevok]
Except jacobbrett I guess
20:08:01 [reosarevok]
(who did go around fixing some at some point)
20:08:09 [v6lur]
okay, but then i'll fix them as i come across them :P
20:08:13 [reosarevok]
Sure
20:42:42 [buremba]
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20:43:51 [buremba]
there is an error in date_year in this release: http://musicbrainz.org/release/9c9662ec-9f32-42b3-974f-40a9b24a756d
20:44:16 [reosarevok]
Yes, there is
20:44:17 [buremba]
my denormalized table is broken because of that release. :)
20:44:33 [reosarevok]
heh
20:44:53 [reosarevok]
You should be able to deal with users being st... having problems to understand yyyy-mm-dd
20:45:04 [reosarevok]
Fixed anyway
20:46:08 [buremba]
reosarevok: I created a timestamp column and now I can see this is not a good choice.
20:46:52 [reosarevok]
* reosarevok tells the user anyway
20:47:07 [buremba]
I couldn't change the date from musicbrainz.org
20:47:12 [buremba]
it seems you did it.
20:47:14 [buremba]
thanks
20:47:41 [reosarevok]
Huh, you couldn't? It's just done by editing the release and changing the date fields...
20:47:56 [reosarevok]
(although it still needs to pass unless you can autoedit it like I just did)
20:48:38 [reosarevok]
v6lur: do you want to make any changes to /Style/Language/Estonian now that it isn't just CapitalizationStandard?
20:48:44 [reosarevok]
* reosarevok is not sure if any are needed
20:49:34 [buremba]
upps, I only checked "Editing" header in sidebar and there is no option like that. It's in tab section, now I can see.
20:56:00 [v6lur]
reosarevok: could mention the quote thing, i guess...
20:56:37 [reosarevok]
While you're around, any idea if "Taas punab pihlakaid" and "Taas punab pihlapuid" are the same song?
20:56:46 [reosarevok]
The credited composer at least is the same...
20:57:18 [SultS]
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20:58:08 [hrglgrmpf]
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20:58:09 [v6lur]
probably the same, but i'm not very sure
21:00:32 [reosarevok]
* reosarevok will assume they are
21:00:40 [reosarevok]
Someone can unlink the work later if they're not
21:03:07 [hrglgrmp1]
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21:06:04 [v6lur]
reosarevok: proposed change visible at http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Mihhkel/Style/Language/Estonian
21:06:31 [reosarevok]
Seems fine
21:06:47 [jcazevedo]
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21:07:34 [v6lur]
SultS: ^ ideas for additions/changes?
21:11:39 [reosarevok]
* reosarevok RFCs the classical part
21:13:12 [SultS]
v6lur: any idea how to tell to capitalize the first word on alternative titles like in http://musicbrainz.org/edit/16341610 for people who don’t speak the language?
21:13:55 [SultS]
well… opposite to that edit…
21:18:33 [v6lur]
how about now?
21:23:12 [SultS]
“if it is not part of the preceding phrase” … alternative title should probably always be separate and not part of the preceding phrase?
21:24:23 [reosarevok]
* reosarevok can't really see how a non-Estonian speaker would be able to see if it is or not
21:24:34 [reosarevok]
On the other hand, that's bound to happen with any language anyway
21:24:38 [SultS]
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Style/Language/English has “capitalize each distinct piece of the title as if it were a distinct title”, perhaps use wording from that
21:24:56 [SultS]
it’s also for different parts of the same title though
21:24:58 [hrglgrmpf]
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21:25:34 [SultS]
reosarevok: yeah, I’m not sure how to make it clear that’s it’s an alternate title, not part of the “normal” one
21:25:49 [v6lur]
hm
21:25:55 [reosarevok]
Oh, I can think of ways to say that
21:26:01 [reosarevok]
I just don't know if it matters
21:26:07 [reosarevok]
Since it's pretty hard to realise
21:27:01 [v6lur]
what i meant was that sometimes alt-title is a continuation of the 'official' title
21:27:21 [v6lur]
and in those cases i'd like it to stay lowercase in parentheses
21:27:24 [SultS]
examples?
21:27:35 [v6lur]
a moment...
21:28:31 [reosarevok]
The only title with parentheses I can think of right now is http://musicbrainz.org/work/9afb23cc-7409-41e5-9773-4c3eb0945350
21:29:55 [MaskMaster]
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21:32:30 [v6lur]
like this http://musicbrainz.org/recording/3f59bead-d1b4-4aa7-b00d-4f5f15cb27c3
21:32:48 [SultS]
reosarevok: my guess would actually be that at least originally there was no alternate title… I could be wrong though
21:32:56 [v6lur]
reosarevok: i think cases like yours are far more common
21:33:40 [v6lur]
i agree it's not an alt-title as such -- just that someone could try to interpret it as that
21:33:55 [v6lur]
(i.e. cap the "kuid")
21:34:13 [SultS]
v6lur, not sure I’d call it an alternate title… to me it would have to be able to be a proper title (make sense) without the first part
21:34:55 [v6lur]
yea, my wording is far from perfect :P
21:35:17 [SultS]
I would think most people would rather only capitalize the 1st word of the whole title and not also every 1st word in a parentheses
21:39:58 [hrglgrmpf]
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21:43:07 [reosarevok]
And in the list of "releases nobody will ever care about", I present you http://musicbrainz.org/release/5a07b572-7aba-48b8-8b95-e7641540ec08 !
21:43:54 [reosarevok]
Entering the exact dates for each recording relationship might just have been the most nobody-will-ever-care bit of editing I've ever done
21:44:09 [ianmcorvidae]
my desktop computer is named after one of those birds :P
21:45:04 [hrglgrmpf]
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21:45:45 [reosarevok]
etu, are you there? ;)
21:46:15 [SultS]
reosarevok: what do you mean [no artist]? clearly the the title = the artist :P
21:46:39 [ianmcorvidae]
[unknown bird of species <x>]? :P
21:46:39 [reosarevok]
heh, freeDB had "Linnud ja konnad"
21:46:48 [reosarevok]
(as release artist)
21:47:03 [SultS]
go add an artist “mets” :)
21:47:23 [reosarevok]
lol
21:51:28 [SultS]
nice, http://erb.nlib.ee/?kid=1239824x might allow me to listen to it…
21:51:53 [reosarevok]
Don't you need to be doing it from the actual library?
21:52:00 [reosarevok]
* reosarevok doesn't know how that thing works
21:52:33 [SultS]
maybe… but right now I only see it allows me to either register online or use my ID card
21:53:01 [reosarevok]
huh
21:53:10 [reosarevok]
where?
21:53:22 [reosarevok]
If I click the mp3 thing I just get a 403
21:53:38 [reosarevok]
Oh, maybe if I log in
21:54:10 [SultS]
“logi sisse” → https://login.nlib.ee/cas/login?service=http://erb.nlib.ee/login.php
21:54:30 [reosarevok]
Yeah, taking my ID card
21:55:08 [SultS]
the text there seems to imply you don’t have to be in the library
21:55:40 [the_metalgamer]
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22:01:50 [reosarevok]
SultS: oh, but I have to be a member of that library
22:02:03 [reosarevok]
Which I seem not to be (only Tartu LR and TÜR)
22:03:15 [SultS]
hmm… registered, logged in, still getting 403… doesn’t say anything about member requirement
22:03:30 [reosarevok]
Hm
22:03:35 [reosarevok]
So what number did you enter then?
22:03:36 [SultS]
ah
22:03:38 [reosarevok]
Just your ID one?
22:03:39 [SultS]
“Ligipääs keelatud - failidele pääseb ligi vaid EMTA sisevõrgust!”
22:03:45 [SultS]
yeah
22:03:50 [SultS]
http://mp3.ema.edu.ee/
22:04:02 [reosarevok]
Aww
22:06:13 [v6lur]
SultS, reosarevok: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Mihhkel/Style/Language/Estonian -- how's the wording now? :)
22:09:17 [v6lur]
talk about alternative titles... http://musicbrainz.org/release/37769b9d-1f8a-46e0-aba8-838e06b70d29 O_o
22:09:22 [SultS]
v6lur: what are “pärisnimed”? :) nicknames should be capitalized
22:10:00 [reosarevok]
v6lur: actually, I think that might be the words for it and it should probably be in quotes instead...
22:10:11 [reosarevok]
(the start of each part of the cantata)
22:10:27 [SultS]
“Päike on kõikide päralt (Mitte häda ja vaev)” should be all lower case, I would say
22:11:24 [reosarevok]
http://muusika24.ee/Muusika/song/P%C3%A4ike-on-k%C3%B5ikide-p%C3%A4ralt-Mitte-h%C3%A4da-ja-vaev
22:11:28 [reosarevok]
It's indeed the start of the lyrics
22:11:54 [reosarevok]
(the part in parentheses)
22:12:30 [SultS]
interesting :(
22:12:32 [SultS]
:)
22:12:33 [SultS]
*
22:12:37 [reosarevok]
v6lur: "The first word of an alternative title in parentheses should be capitalized as well; if the parentheses do not contain an alternative title, but a continuation of the preceding phrase, it shouldn't be capitalized." ?
22:15:42 [v6lur]
reosarevok: better indeed
22:19:29 [v6lur]
SultS: updated
22:21:51 [SultS]
that looks good :)
22:22:40 [SultS]
but I’m done for today :) good night :)
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