IRC log of musicbrainz on 2012-09-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

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01:13:02 [CallerNo6]
hm. I'm entering a poem that's been set to music (more than once). It feels more accurate to say the poet "wrote" it rather than "wrote lyrics". Is that how y'all do it?
01:19:12 [ianmcorvidae]
I've used lyricist rather than writer
01:19:29 [ianmcorvidae]
because writer is defined within our system as "either the lyricist or the composer, we're not sure which" more than the colloquial meaning
01:20:05 [ianmcorvidae]
but I've also only entered in not as a poem, just linking the poet to the musical work
01:20:28 [ianmcorvidae]
(since it was stuff I didn't know to be set to music more than once, though I suppose it's not unlikely)
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01:25:01 [CallerNo6]
Yeah, that's why I hesitated. Because of the fuzziness of "writer".
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02:23:38 [CallerNo6]
I'd also hesitate to use "lyricist" for a speech or lecture or radio show or...
02:24:37 [CallerNo6]
(although I guess those aren't likely to need works)
02:29:22 [ianmcorvidae]
* ianmcorvidae hands CallerNo6 a "congratulations, you've found yet another place our ad-hoc ontologizing and style guideline madness don't really reflect reality well" certificate
02:31:22 [ianmcorvidae]
I should get some of those printed and hand them out at the summit :P
02:32:05 [CallerNo6]
Well, sure, natural language is never going to fit a database. Which is why it'd be a shame to say that "writer" (the most flexible term) is in fact the least flexible relationship. :-)
02:32:50 [ianmcorvidae]
general and flexible are two different things :)
02:32:55 [CallerNo6]
In any case, I'll make room on my wall.
02:33:09 [ianmcorvidae]
haha
02:34:11 [CallerNo6]
... and so should you all.
02:34:14 [ianmcorvidae]
anyway, I doubt it matters all that much
02:34:35 [ianmcorvidae]
I've used lyricist, but I was also doing it on musical works, not works for poems specifically
02:35:16 [ianmcorvidae]
not like we define our semantics formally anyway, it's not like anyone could actually say you're wrong (or that I'm wrong, or right, or anything else :P)
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02:53:10 [CallerNo6]
* CallerNo6 drinks from http://www.cafepress.com/begthequestion.37288023
03:00:32 [CallerNo6]
... and earns a few more sub optimal credit credits.
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04:24:43 [CallerNo6]
Hm. Being a monolingual north american, I never noticed before. Wikipedia articles don't always link to translations. Sometimes they link to cultural equivalents.
04:24:56 [ianmcorvidae]
oh?
04:25:09 [CallerNo6]
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brudmarsch
04:26:19 [ianmcorvidae]
looks like english is the outlier there, with "Wedding Music" instead of everything else which seems to have "Wedding March" in the relevant language
04:26:52 [ianmcorvidae]
but it looks like those are pretty much translations to me :P
04:28:15 [CallerNo6]
I didn't look at the other languages. Maybe I should have said uncurious monolingual north american.
04:28:21 [ianmcorvidae]
haha
04:28:44 [ianmcorvidae]
I admittedly mostly looked at titles, so some of the non-latin-script ones could also be more general
04:28:59 [ianmcorvidae]
(the japanese was all kanji, that being the script of theirs I can't read, so :/)
04:31:12 [ianmcorvidae]
heh, but the first two links on the ja page are "wedding" and "march" respectively, so :)
04:31:30 [CallerNo6]
ha! google translate gives me "Bride Cruising" as the title of the swedish page.
04:31:52 [CallerNo6]
So at least /some/ concepts might be universal.
04:31:57 [ianmcorvidae]
that sounds substantially more risqué
04:32:05 [CallerNo6]
It is if you do it right.
04:38:55 [CallerNo6]
Nice. The Hebrew page helpfully points out that Wagner is rarely played at Jewish weddings.
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06:12:25 [jacobbrett]
Thoughts on: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-add-a-option-to-quot-Type-quot-in-quot-Add-URL-Relationship-quot-Called-quot-get-the-music-quot--td4640588.html ?
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06:12:50 [jacobbrett]
Related release (appears to be a compilation of podcast episodes released at different times): http://musicbrainz.org/release/cb107850-60cf-44d6-9f31-48b0fa4825ac
06:13:24 [jacobbrett]
I think the episodes should be added as individual releases; this looks like a use-case for a Series relationship.
06:16:51 [kepstin-laptop]
jacobbrett: yeah, I agree about using a "series" there
06:17:51 [jacobbrett]
kepstin-laptop: I'm abstaining instead of vetoing though, because the episode recordings would remain if we removed the release later. Now, we just need to agree on how to implement Series...
06:18:29 [kepstin-laptop]
hmm. there was somne good discussion on it a while back, but I don't have a link handy
06:21:52 [jacobbrett]
Here's all I've found (for those interested):
06:21:53 [jacobbrett]
http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-Part-of-series-relationship-td1061111.html
06:22:05 [jacobbrett]
http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFV-Part-of-series-relationship-td1061242.html
06:22:12 [jacobbrett]
http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/Part-of-series-relationship-td1593068.html
06:22:17 [jacobbrett]
http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/Series-support-discussion-td4637147.html
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06:32:00 [CallerNo6]
I don't think there's any substantial /disagreement/ on how to do series, is there?
06:40:04 [robmorrissey]
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06:41:41 [jacobbrett]
CallerNo6, then why didn't anything come of the above (I haven't looked through them recently)?
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06:50:22 [CallerNo6]
I think people just got sidetracked. At least that's my excuse.
06:52:24 [CallerNo6]
It's safe to skip the pre-NGS part-of-series stuff I think. Now we can have an actual entity to link to.
06:53:45 [CallerNo6]
er, I mean an actual "series" entity
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07:19:54 [jacobbrett]
CallerNo6: Noted. I might make up an RFC...
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08:45:51 [Lomaxx]
I think all these should be renamed to "Compact Jazz: <artist>" like they start to show up on the second page: http://musicbrainz.org/search?page=3&query=Compact+Jazz&type=release&limit=25&method=direct
08:46:07 [Lomaxx]
Are there more efficient ways of editing them than doing it one by one?
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10:12:07 [Lomaxx]
I wonder why "case guess" spells "for" (all small) but "Not" with capitalized "n" in a title like "But Not for Me". <shrugs>
10:13:17 [reosarevok]
Because for is a preposition and not is an adverb
10:14:20 [Lomaxx]
so it's correct English grammar? I'm no English native speaker and due to the demand for speed while writing in the net, by grammar has not become much better since i left school 20 years ago. ;)
10:15:33 [warp]
english title capitalization is strange :)
10:15:51 [warp]
Lomaxx: our own guideline on this topic is here: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Style/Language/English
10:16:08 [Lomaxx]
ok, I'll take a look. Thanks.
10:16:28 [warp]
more general: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_capitalization#Headings_and_publication_titles
10:23:09 [Lomaxx]
<sigh> because the label "CBS Records" changed into "Columbia Records" the 4CD-collection "The CBS Years 1955 - 1985" had to be changed to "The Columbia Years" too. So...a new release. :P
10:23:54 [warp]
:D
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10:48:28 [Lomaxx]
Can I somehow create a new release from an existing one even when the existing one was not found by the "release duplicate"-tab? I'd appreciate not to enter all 4 CDs again.
10:49:18 [ianmcorvidae]
hm
10:49:35 [ianmcorvidae]
perhaps enter in a name that'll make the old one appear on the release duplicates tab, select it, and then go back and change the name after
10:50:08 [Lomaxx]
yeah, that might work. thanks
10:50:13 [ianmcorvidae]
I think it might be possible to import things from existing releases on the tracklist page, using the add disc popup
10:50:26 [ianmcorvidae]
but I think just changing it so it appears in release duplicates is probably easier
10:52:06 [Lomaxx]
oh, the "add cd"-part is more advanced than i thought. never did that so far. but I'll try what you recommended first
10:52:25 [reosarevok]
Just by adding it from the same release group's sidebar, it should find it...
10:52:27 [reosarevok]
(I think)
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11:49:58 [mat_]
I have this release : http://static.qobuz.com/images/jaquettes/0794/0794881939428_600.jpg and, hum, in the classical guide, it does not say how to put that case, it would be something like : "various artists; ophélie..., royal ..." but that is silly, so I should do "ophélie..., royal ..." or "ophélie... & royal ..."
11:50:31 [mat_]
s/I should do/should I do/
11:55:22 [reosarevok]
Commas, I'd say
11:56:16 [mat_]
ok :-)
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12:30:08 [Lomaxx]
Is there some standardised checksum-mechanism for identifying songs that are the same? I doubt that AcoustID is accurate enough for this. On the other hand a completely bit-wise check is too exact in a lot of cases. For example the mechanism should be able to detect differing digitally remastered versions, but ignore differences due to (missing) silent parts at the start/end.
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12:38:36 [kepstin-laptop]
Lomaxx: acoustid really is an attempt to do that, but would need some re-tuning in the matching algorithm.
12:47:01 [Lomaxx]
kepstin-laptop, can you give a rough example on how detailed/accurate it currently is?
13:02:19 [kepstin-laptop]
Lomaxx: it's generally pretty good, but has some issues with alternate mixes of the same song occasionally - e.g. some karaoke mixes of songs.
13:10:47 [dankine]
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13:13:15 [ocharles]
I'm looking at MBS-1579 and wondering - does this need to be in the release editor itself, or only the track parse dialog?
13:13:19 [ocharles]
http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/MBS-1579
13:14:12 [kepstin-laptop]
ocharles: I think that ticket dates back to when we had non-advanced mode in the release editor
13:15:03 [kepstin-laptop]
but I think the feature might also be useful on a seeded release editor or a freedb/cd stub import - which doesn't go through the track parse dialog.
13:15:18 [ocharles]
ok, so I'm probably going to add a button next to 'reset track numbers'
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14:06:07 [[florian]]
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14:06:10 [[florian]]
hello
14:06:53 [lilleman]
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14:07:07 [[florian]]
is the version 2 of the web service still functionnal?
14:07:44 [jesus2099]
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14:08:03 [[florian]]
for instance the following URL gives me no reply, while it used to work a couple weeks ago
14:08:06 [[florian]]
http://www.musicbrainz.org/ws/2/discid/dU8j.dEsDaobKBZDSmXcVXtHKBc-?inc=artists+recordings&limit=1
14:08:08 [jesus2099]
I just created a release and want to re-use its tracklist in another release (same + bonus disc)
14:08:24 [jesus2099]
I click Add disc, Existing tracklist, fill out the artist release name and track count but nothing…
14:08:35 [jesus2099]
it seems that this widget uses only the indexed search
14:08:38 [jesus2099]
not direct
14:09:13 [jesus2099]
does anyone know how much time does it take maximum for new releases to be indexed ?
14:10:32 [TheLastProject]
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14:13:37 [jesus2099]
* jesus2099 found the ticket http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/MBS-5287 ;)
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14:19:27 [reosarevok]
[florian], are you sure that CDTOC is correct?
14:19:37 [reosarevok]
It doesn't seem to be in MB proper either
14:19:42 [[florian]]
it's computed by gstreamer, so unless this changed recently
14:20:06 [reosarevok]
I mean, maybe it's returning nothing because the CD is not in MB
14:20:17 [reosarevok]
(but if it worked before, that's weird)
14:20:29 [[florian]]
the cd in question is Daft Punk's homework
14:20:32 [[florian]]
I tried with several others
14:20:42 [[florian]]
which all have been in MB's database
14:21:32 [reosarevok]
We have several discIDs for Homework, but dU8j.dEsDaobKBZDSmXcVXtHKBc- doesn't seem to be one of them
14:21:59 [[florian]]
then it must be gstreamer which does not compute a valid id
14:22:40 [[florian]]
is there some kind of command-line utility returning a mbid?
14:24:03 [reosarevok]
Well, it doesn't have to be that
14:24:12 [reosarevok]
It could just be that nobody has submitted that specific one
14:24:21 [[florian]]
how do you explain that it worked a couple of weeks ago?
14:24:29 [[florian]]
are you cleaning up the database sometime maybe?
14:24:32 [reosarevok]
I don't, that's the weird thing
14:24:44 [reosarevok]
If it worked, maybe gstreamer is reading it differently now for some reason
14:24:49 [reosarevok]
We don't usually remove discIDs
14:27:37 [[florian]]
it looks like my mbid is actually truncated
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15:20:21 [[florian]]
reosarevok: ok I found the culprit
15:20:40 [[florian]]
my audio cd drive is not generating a proper hash, and thus the mbid is wrong, I got to fix this
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15:38:46 [CallerNo6]
ianmcorvidae: going back to an earlier question, are (were?) you planning to change wiki article title capitalization? Or was that script just about user pages?
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16:48:07 [CallerNo6]
from the wiki, "Edit notes can be as long or as short as you like, but keep in mind that others will have to read and understand what you are saying"
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16:50:21 [reosarevok]
heh
16:50:38 [reosarevok]
Well, that sounds about right
16:51:20 [reosarevok]
Of course, it all gets murkier with non-English notes
16:51:37 [reosarevok]
But in any case, anyone who can read what you're writing should be able to, well, read it
16:52:26 [warp_]
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16:56:21 [CallerNo6]
"you can add as many symbols to your edit note as you like, and keep in mind that it's also possible to convey meaning with symbols if you want to get fancy"
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17:02:02 [reosarevok]
That sounds like something jesus2099 would write :D
17:04:13 [[florian]]
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17:06:05 [CallerNo6]
it's symbols all the way down
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17:32:25 [lfranchi]
hi folks
17:33:57 [lfranchi]
i'm pretty new to using mb to help me tag my music, so i have a question about a discrepancy. this album: http://musicbrainz.org/release/520ebd23-bbef-4d5f-8904-76783585e0e0 is spelled "Mediterranées" on mb, but Méditerranées (note the accent on the first e) in the covert pictured. is this a typo/error, and if so, what's the proper way for me to fix it?
17:35:02 [lfranchi]
also see covert art here: http://www.amazon.com/Mediterranees-Renaud-Garcia-Fons/dp/B003WL7ELC?tag=duckduckgo-d-20
17:35:18 [CallerNo6]
lfranchi: do you already have an account on mb?
17:37:23 [lfranchi]
CallerNo6: i do now :)
17:37:45 [CallerNo6]
Ah. Good. Welcome to MusicBrainzLand.
17:38:10 [lfranchi]
turns out i already did... guess i created it many years ago and never used it :)
17:38:41 [CallerNo6]
Careful. Editing can be habit forming.
17:40:20 [srotta]
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17:40:26 [CallerNo6]
So. It does look like that release title is an error/typo. You'll want to correct both the Release title (on the page you linked to) and the Release Group title ( http://musicbrainz.org/release-group/733674e8-fd38-47df-b3e2-5777ca1b2714 )
17:40:37 [lfranchi]
ok, cool
17:42:57 [CallerNo6]
Don't forget to include an explanation in the "edit note" box. A link to the cover or whatever. That helps voters quickly verify your edit.
17:43:24 [lfranchi]
Yep, just did that :)
17:43:50 [lfranchi]
for the release itself, the edit process seems to span many pages. It's enough for me to just change the release title (the release group is already fixed w/ the new one), right?
17:44:07 [lfranchi]
and it looks like the artist's name is missing an accent as well. heh
17:46:53 [derwin]
hey lfranchi :)
17:46:53 [CallerNo6]
yes, if you're only changing the title, you can skip the other stuff and go directly to the "edit note" tab.
17:46:59 [derwin]
recognize you from #beets yeh?
17:47:27 [derwin]
lfranchi: if you paste the edits, I will review/vote as well
17:47:29 [lfranchi]
derwin: yep, recently started using beets, which removed the accent, which made my metadata not match up, which brought me here :)
17:47:45 [uk]
lfranchi: Artist name seems to be OK though.
17:47:49 [derwin]
lfranchi: btw, I strongly dislike this case in beets, and have talked to sampsyo about it
17:48:09 [derwin]
lfranchi: basically if there's a match in mb but it's wrong, you can sometimes find out only when it has actually retagged
17:48:19 [derwin]
I find this a lot of times where my original tags are correct
17:48:45 [lfranchi]
uk: hm really? if I look at his lower-cased name in album covers: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PJkx0RgAL._SS400_.jpg and http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VP3SD3-1L._SS400_.jpg for example
17:48:48 [lfranchi]
it has the accent
17:49:03 [derwin]
but the release in mb.orğ has a typo
17:49:17 [lfranchi]
i guess it's just inconsistent. http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51eUpgkqTkL._SS400_.jpg is is also accented
17:49:32 [hawke]
Oh hey, it’s lfranchi of Tomahawk. Good to see you here.
17:49:45 [lfranchi]
hi hawke :)
17:50:02 [lfranchi]
hawke: yeah, came here b/c i was listening along to someone and it was streaming their track instead of playing my copy, due to accent differences :P
17:50:13 [lfranchi]
derwin: looks like my edits were both automatically applied?
17:50:28 [hawke]
lfranchi: Minor changes like that (capitalization, accenting) get applied automatically
17:50:34 [lfranchi]
ah, cool
17:53:14 [uk]
Well, it's just that French Wikipedia doesn't have an accent, nor does his website's start page.
17:54:35 [lfranchi]
uk: good point
17:54:46 [uk]
So I guess I'd leave it as it is, but change the artist credit of any release having an �.
17:54:54 [uk]
Sorry, í.
17:56:32 [uk]
It's inconsistent all over the place. The "biography" section of his website doesn't have the hyphen. :)
17:57:01 [uk]
The French version, that is. The English one has it.
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17:59:03 [CallerNo6]
lfranchi: for minor name variations, see wiki.musicbrainz.org/How_to_Use_Artist_Credits
18:02:43 [lfranchi]
thx
18:05:02 [derwin]
#musicbrainz is friendly :)
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18:36:48 [Prommah]
The artist John O'Callaghan (http://musicbrainz.org/artist/8c0a04b6-8a33-4f6b-9cc5-bc2bbec03d31) is usually written (everywhere I've looked) with a standard apostrophe (U+0027), but the MB entry uses the character 'private use two' (U+0092) instead. This seems like a typo, or might there be a reason for it? I ask as I would've thought it'd be fixed by now if it were just a typo.
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18:38:32 [ianweller]
Prommah: it's a curly quote, and it is preferred to a straight quote
18:38:40 [ianweller]
i'm trying to find the style guide entry on it
18:39:04 [hawke]
misc guideline
18:39:22 [hawke]
MB shouldn’t be using U+0092 though.
18:39:35 [ianweller]
http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Miscellaneous
18:39:59 [ianweller]
is that actually U+0092?
18:40:00 [hawke]
and it’s not.
18:40:04 [ianmcorvidae]
it doesn't seem to be u+0092
18:40:06 [hawke]
No, it’s U+2019
18:40:06 [ianmcorvidae]
it's 2019
18:40:13 [ianweller]
that's what i thought
18:40:14 [hawke]
Where’d you get 0092 from, Prommah?
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18:41:00 [Prommah]
copy pasted into a hex editor
18:42:01 [hawke]
A bad hex editor? ;-)
18:42:50 [ianweller]
Prommah: try saving the HTML page, and opening that into a hex editor
18:43:43 [kepstin-work]
ianweller: well, that would be misleading, because the page is served as utf-8
18:43:46 [ianweller]
yeah
18:44:15 [ianmcorvidae]
yeah, u+2019 as utf8 is e2 80 99
18:44:16 [kepstin-work]
’ is 0xE2 0x80 0x99 in UTF-8
18:45:34 [Prommah]
Ah yes, in firefox and chrome it appears to me as a mirrored grave accent, and copy pastes to 0092 from source as well. But in the chrome dev tools, inspecting the element, it looks as it should. Odd
18:48:17 [Prommah]
Well, that makes more sense then, but still.. There's an alias for the name with an apostrophe, and several uses of his name in titles (mixes etc) use an apostrophe. Some tracklists have the 'as credited' field with an apostrophe. It seems messy for the sake of typographically-correct punctuation.
18:51:16 [ianmcorvidae]
the switch to preferring typographically-correct punctuation is relatively recent, so a lot of stuff isn't updated -- the alias is potentially unnecessary but it might help the search server
18:51:35 [ianmcorvidae]
the tracklists it's hard to say; possibly they should be changed to use the unicode apostrophe
18:53:02 [hawke]
Unless it’s artist intent, they should all be U+2019
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19:00:38 [portik]
i'm in the middle of an compilation edit and i accidentally close the tab. when i'm reopen the tab. they all gone. i'm in release info subtab :( what do?
19:03:09 [reosarevok]
Curse
19:03:52 [portik]
:(
19:05:00 [reosarevok]
Indeed
19:05:06 [reosarevok]
(I've done that a few times :( )
19:05:50 [portik]
opening caps lock irl
19:06:36 [ianmcorvidae]
CallerNo6: I don't think there are really plans at present to change things wholesale; the script was just a failed attempt to fix the user pages
19:10:53 [Prommah]
Ah yeah, worked it out. When I paste it into anything outside the browser, it becomes 0092. 0092 and 2019 display the same because of the font. Thanks for clearing that up for me (sorry for wasting your time >.>)
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19:43:29 [CallerNo6]
Freso, I don't know if you saw my earlier ping. You're the only editor I can think of that might be able to recognize Swedish [trad].
19:44:59 [uk]
CallerNo6: What do you need regarding Swedish?
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19:45:49 [CallerNo6]
uk, I was trying to identify a track. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejIwvssLxnM
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19:49:12 [uk]
Listening to it, but I don't recognize it. :(
19:49:42 [uk]
You could try and ask Per Starbäck, perhaps heknows.
19:51:57 [CallerNo6]
Worth a shot. Thanks.
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21:52:29 [Freso]
CallerNo6: I did see it.
21:52:50 [Freso]
* Freso just back from dance classes... sweating like crazy and about to hit the shower before dinner and bed. :p
21:53:51 [Freso]
CallerNo6: Can you send me an e-mail with relevant links/info? I'll look at it in the morrow.
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