IRC log of musicbrainz on 2014-07-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:11:51 [robmorrissey]
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01:29:37 [dna6android]
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01:29:41 [dna6android]
wooo
01:29:54 [dna6android]
a huge chan! I hit the jackpot!
01:31:12 [dna6android]
I am setting this application up and would like to know the syntax for "Artist - Title" for file naming please
01:32:39 [Rovastar]
? what do you mean?
01:34:24 [kepstin_]
dna6android: are you using musicbrainz picard?
01:34:48 [dna6android]
kepstin_: yeah
01:35:02 [dna6android]
$if2(%albumartist%,%artist%)/%album%/$if($gt(%totaldiscs%,1),%discnumber%-,)$num(%tracknumber%,2)$if(%compilation%, %artist% -,) %title% this is too messy
01:35:13 [kepstin_]
picard's naming stuff is pretty powerful, we have a scripting reference at https://musicbrainz.org/doc/MusicBrainz_Picard/Documentation/Scripting and variable names at https://musicbrainz.org/doc/MusicBrainz_Picard/Tags
01:35:51 [kepstin_]
the default pattern is designed to make sure albums to into different folders, nicely sorted by the album artist name
01:36:25 [kepstin_]
what exactly do you want it do look like? I can help you with that.
01:36:52 [dna6android]
just Artist - Title would be all I need
01:37:10 [kepstin_]
you don't want folders for albums or track numbers or anything like that?
01:37:13 [Rovastar]
Are you sure?
01:37:28 [kepstin_]
then it should be just
01:37:30 [kepstin_]
%artist% - %title%
01:37:32 [dna6android]
well I can edit genre etc in the id
01:37:42 [kepstin_]
that'll use the track artist and title for each track
01:37:44 [dna6android]
for te file name less is best
01:37:53 [kepstin_]
make sure you don't have the same song on multiple albums ;)
01:38:03 [dna6android]
ive deleted all dupilcates
01:38:16 [dna6android]
i am getting back into djing and my music is a mess heh
01:38:18 [Rovastar]
Surely you want track numbers otherwise they will all be in wrong order
01:38:26 [dna6android]
I found this program and it looks brilliant
01:38:46 [dna6android]
Rovastar: its for djing not for listening to an album from start to end
01:38:47 [kepstin_]
ah, I guess for djing you just want to quickly look up individual recordings, the album doesn't matter.
01:39:31 [Rovastar]
For DJing don't you load them from the metatags inside them the file rather than the file names?
01:39:54 [Rovastar]
I suppose it depends on what program you use
01:40:13 [kepstin_]
hey, if you just want to make sure you have unique names for the files, and you don't care what the name is, you could just use "%musicbrainz_trackid%" and get uuids ;)
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01:41:33 [dna6android]
ok so in the tag section, how do I choose what is loaded there? like I would like the api to check for genre, is it already setup to do this?
01:41:53 [kepstin_]
... we don't really have genres :/
01:42:08 [dna6android]
I am not really sure what a uuid is sorry kep
01:42:26 [kepstin_]
just a unique bunch of random looking letters and numbers, pretty much
01:42:39 [Rovastar]
a unique id
01:42:56 [dna6android]
so pickard cant auto tag genre into mp3 id?
01:43:07 [kepstin_]
but yeah, genres is an ongoing issue for us. picard can optionally pull stuff from "tags" on musicbrainz and use them as genres, but our coverage isn't very good.
01:43:32 [kepstin_]
and those tags are used to store info that's not genres, too
01:43:50 [dna6android]
hrmm
01:43:56 [Rovastar]
generally it will work fairly well though
01:44:05 [kepstin_]
for more popular stuff, yeah
01:44:22 [Rovastar]
most electronic stuff it has a good stab at
01:44:36 [dna6android]
so there are no other applications to assist with auto genre adding to mp3id?
01:44:43 [dna6android]
its a manual job... fml
01:44:46 [Rovastar]
it does do it
01:44:57 [Rovastar]
why not try it
01:45:58 [kepstin_]
There is a picard plugin that pulls tags from last.fm and uses them for genre
01:46:08 [kepstin_]
if the built-in stuff doesn't work well, you could give that a try
01:48:28 [kepstin_]
(to try the musicbrainz tags, check 'use folksonomy tags as genre' on the metadata pane of the picard options
01:48:45 [kepstin_]
if you want to try the last.fm genres, there's some docs here: https://musicbrainz.org/doc/MusicBrainz_Picard/Documentation/Plugins/Lastfmplus
02:15:50 [derwin]
genre doesn't exist
02:15:59 [derwin]
beets can tag with last.fm tags as "genre" but...
02:16:08 [derwin]
genre doesn't exist
02:16:25 [derwin]
esp. in the id3 standard
02:16:35 [kepstin_]
the classic response to any question about genres is "what's a genre?" :)
02:17:02 [kepstin_]
* kepstin_ wonders if we'll manage to decide nothing useful about genres again this summit
02:17:11 [derwin]
dna6android: two different tools do it with plugins + musicbrainz + last.fm
02:17:28 [kepstin_]
all we know is that we want some stuff called a genre because our customers want some stuff called a genre.
02:18:31 [derwin]
does music have one genre, or many?
02:35:00 [MBChatLogger]
disgracenote is evil!
02:35:00 [Rovastar]
genres are a tricky subject. I know winamp are trying to use musicbrainz but they used to have genre with gracenote so want to recreate that.
02:38:19 [Rovastar]
true but they had genres ;)
02:41:36 [derwin]
lol, winamp.
02:41:49 [dna6android]
thanks for all your help lads
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02:41:54 [dna6android]
much appreciated
02:43:37 [dna6android]
I am too anti top 40 I think , and will just manually do genres
02:47:56 [derwin]
huh?
02:48:00 [derwin]
why not use beets or picard?
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02:56:11 [dna6android]
I did a test run on picard and it didnt pick up the genre
02:56:37 [dna6android]
and most of my music is way more obscure than the test run
02:57:16 [derwin]
are you familiar with last.fm?
02:57:50 [derwin]
I mean I'm sure your obscurity e-peen is real large, but you do realize you're in a channel full of super music nerds?
02:59:24 [dna6android]
I have heard of last.fm but not interacted with it
02:59:34 [dna6android]
sorry , I wasnt meaning to come across as a wanker
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03:27:31 [derwin]
dna6android: haha, no problem, I'm just joshing hehe
03:27:40 [derwin]
dna6android: so, last.fm, you should check it out
03:28:06 [derwin]
dna6android: I have like.. 16,000 artists in last.fm... most of them have at least some tags associated with their artist in last.fm
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04:25:53 [dna6android]
sorry derwin im at work atm and have been here n and off
04:26:23 [dna6android]
so lastfm directly ties into a home mp3 collection?
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05:51:55 [derwin]
dna6android: as you listen to music, you "scrobble" it to last.fm
05:52:15 [derwin]
it then creates an entity in its (postgres) database for that song
05:52:22 [derwin]
and artist, etc.
05:52:30 [derwin]
people then association "tags" with them, so..
05:52:56 [derwin]
http://www.last.fm/music/Breakmaster+Cylinder
05:53:26 [derwin]
http://www.last.fm/music/Breakmaster+Cylinder/+tags
06:03:53 [derwin]
http://xbmc.org/support-for-metadata-sites-2014/
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07:49:01 [CatQuest]
speakig of cover art; there isn't an importer to run from links from beatport an or junodownload is there?
07:49:12 [CatQuest]
I know there is one fro discogs (and itunes?)
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09:15:09 [Freso]
"Some errors were detected in the data you’ve entered. Click on the tabs shaded red and correct any visible errors." - there are no tabs shaded red...
09:16:50 [Freso]
bitmap: ^ is the release editor broken on beta?
09:19:14 [reosarevok]
"(MBS-7742) beta: After pasting text into the Edit Note box, the release editor suddenly claims there are errors in the data when there aren't any"
09:19:20 [reosarevok]
Sounds like it?
09:19:28 [reosarevok]
If so, up for review
09:20:35 [Freso]
Yep, that's it exactly.
09:20:38 [Freso]
Thanks reosarevok :)
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11:20:25 [HibiscusKazeneko]
I was led to believe that apostrophes should use ’
11:20:26 [HibiscusKazeneko]
http://musicbrainz.org/edit/28400508
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11:25:59 [Mineo]
why don't you give killinstinct a chance to further explain the reasoning behind this vote, now that you've made it clear that you don't understand his first note?
11:27:44 [Mineo]
but I imagine the reason for not changing ' to ’ in this case is that it doesn't seem to be used as punctuation in this case
11:28:49 [reosarevok]
Yeah, it does look like a bit of a grey area for that
11:29:18 [reosarevok]
Although using it after a D is probably mimicking its French or Italian use which I think would still be ’
11:29:20 [reosarevok]
* reosarevok shrugs
11:29:25 [simukis_]
’s all the way
11:30:11 [simukis_]
Unicode says so, after all.
11:30:40 [HibiscusKazeneko]
What reosarevok said is right
11:31:08 [HibiscusKazeneko]
Many visual kei bands imitate Romance languages (poorly) in their band names
11:31:26 [HibiscusKazeneko]
This band was attempting to stick to those roots
11:32:01 [Mineo]
that would have been very useful information to have in an edit note :)
11:35:50 [HibiscusKazeneko]
Killinstinct already knows this
11:39:09 [HibiscusKazeneko]
Anyone with a cursory knowledge of J-Rock or visual kei would pick up the pattern
11:39:37 [Freso]
HibiscusKazeneko: Just generalise.
11:39:40 [Freso]
Eh.
11:39:43 [Freso]
Don't.
11:39:50 [HibiscusKazeneko]
There are a plethora of other bands that do the same thing, e.g. http://musicbrainz.org/artist/d7d1746d-2085-4370-bd87-a8fd4c9ace4d
11:40:44 [Freso]
HibiscusKazeneko: Still, "anyone" is generalising.
11:40:55 [Freso]
Some people pick up patterns easier than others.
11:41:19 [HibiscusKazeneko]
Most of the artists Killinstinct works with fall into this category
11:41:30 [HibiscusKazeneko]
It's fairly safe to assume he knows the pattern
11:41:31 [Freso]
Some people pick up patterns easier than others.
11:41:48 [Freso]
It's fairly safe to assume that it's not fairly safe to assume anything.
11:42:25 [Freso]
To reiterate what CatQuest told you just yesterday: give other editors the benefit of the doubt.
11:44:49 [simukis_]
I actually prefer lazy evaluation…
11:45:00 [HibiscusKazeneko]
Lazy evaluation?
11:45:04 [Freso]
simukis_: :)
11:45:22 [simukis_]
return explanations only when proplems arise or I am asked for them.
11:45:58 [Freso]
HibiscusKazeneko: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazy_evaluation
11:46:34 [HibiscusKazeneko]
ah
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11:48:01 [Freso]
(That's a Haskell happy author of that article, anyway.)
11:51:47 [Mineo]
that's the case for most articles related to functional programming in wikipedia
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11:57:17 [Mineo]
(and please don't apply that principle to edit notes, you're making life harder for everyone :P)
11:59:03 [Freso]
Mineo++
11:59:39 [Freso]
simukis_: Keep in mind that people may ask about your edits in 1, 5, 10 years. At which point it isn't certain you're still around to answer them.
12:00:21 [Freso]
(You don't bother with MB anymore, you've changed your e-mail and didn't reflect it in your MB settings, you were hit by a bus, you are on a 3 year long trip to Mars, etc.)
12:00:51 [simukis_]
AFAIK trips to Mars are only one-way nowadays…
12:05:43 [Freso]
simukis_: I'm talking in 1 or 5 or 10 years. :)
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* CatQuest shakes fist at netsplits
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14:31:15 [Freso]
On a release: "Mastered by [person] except "Turn It Up" mastered by [someone else]"
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18:43:56 [Yurim]
Hi! I want to understand how to use the "writer" vs. "composer"/"lyricist" relationships. The doc says I could use the former when it's unclear if their individual roles were unclear (http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Relationships#Examples). Can ISWC help? When a person is credited "CA", is this a reliable source for "composer"/"lyricist" relationships?
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18:47:44 [reosarevok]
Not really
18:47:49 [reosarevok]
Well, depends
18:47:56 [reosarevok]
If the credits are *right*, then yes
18:48:18 [reosarevok]
But fairly often they just credit everyone as CA anyway since that determines how royalties are paid
18:49:12 [Yurim]
I see.
18:49:14 [reosarevok]
If you don't have any clear statement of who did what, you can just go for writer
18:49:20 [Yurim]
Does this paragraph mean that I can always use composer/lyricist relationships if only one artist is credited (and the work has both music and text)?
18:49:26 [drsaunders]
ISWC doesn't have the equivalent to our writer
18:49:31 [reosarevok]
Normally, yes :)
18:49:36 [drsaunders]
so when they don't know they credit both
18:50:11 [reosarevok]
(I guess there might be some case where it is using uncredited public domain lyrics or something, but that sounds like an edge case)
18:51:05 [Yurim]
Ok. What do you use as a reference for these relationships (other than the release itself)?
18:52:13 [reosarevok]
Generally, just the release - if not, unless I know someone from ISWC is obviously the lyricist and someone obviously the composer (say, because one is a producer and one a rapper, in a rap song), I'd probably just go with writer
18:52:21 [reosarevok]
Well, for classical music it's different, of course :)
18:52:48 [Yurim]
of course. everything is different for classical music *rollseyes*
18:53:01 [drsaunders]
also keep in mind that almost every instrumental recording has a lyrics credit in ISWC, so you can't use them to determine if there's lyrics or not
18:54:02 [CallerNo6]
I would accept a primary source (the writer) in an interview or blog post or something like that if you can find one.
18:55:11 [reosarevok]
Yeah, I would be ok with that as a reference I imagine :) I don't generally *use it* because it sounds like too much effort for the sake of one work to try to find that when there are hundreds of thousands missing, but if you have it at hand, why not I guess
18:55:12 [Yurim]
ok, so except for the release and individual research there is no definitive (or at lease generally helpful) resource? No silver bullet, guys?
18:55:19 [reosarevok]
heh
18:55:22 [reosarevok]
Not really, no
18:55:30 [reosarevok]
If there was, we wouldn't need MB! ;)
18:55:45 [Yurim]
* Yurim sighs.
18:56:13 [Yurim]
ok, thanks for the information
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20:15:11 [gioele]
Playlists inside MB, opinions? http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.audio.musicbrainz.user/21965
20:16:29 [reosarevok]
Someone wrote to us as well
20:16:36 [reosarevok]
Oh, that's us, lol
20:17:41 [reosarevok]
I personally would not, but not for any legal reasons, it just feels pointless in most cases
20:18:09 [reosarevok]
I mean, how do you add it? As a series? A release?
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20:25:35 [warp]
I wouldn't object to a new entity for that purpose (though I'm not sure enough people would care that we should bother implementing it).
20:25:39 [gioele]
reosarevok: I'd go for release (they studied it for a why, they the released it to their public), medium is hard...
20:26:02 [reosarevok]
I don't agree it's a release
20:26:50 [reosarevok]
And I doubt our customers and data users would either - it would be funny for Spotify to get their own playlists as releases, but I don't think they'd be particularly happy about it :p
20:27:01 [CallerNo6]
I agree with reo's disagreement
20:27:18 [reosarevok]
I would also be OK with it being some new entity, but I know I'm not interested enough to actually implement it myself
20:28:22 [reosarevok]
Dunno if someone else would be
20:29:41 [CallerNo6]
what would a playlist hold? recordings or works depending on the context?
20:29:59 [warp]
recordings
20:30:19 [reosarevok]
Yeah, I guess you can't really play works, so that'd be just a list with no play :D
20:30:33 [reosarevok]
(so, a dull list)
20:30:38 [CallerNo6]
I guess I was thinking more of a setlist when I asked.
20:30:51 [reosarevok]
haha
20:31:08 [CallerNo6]
* CallerNo6 wasn't being funny, just dumb
20:31:17 [reosarevok]
Setlists will initially hold text, in our events implementation, because mostly we had no idea how to answer that question for them
20:31:34 [reosarevok]
(well, and because building them to be more fancy than that would take a lot of effort, but :p)
20:36:39 [drsaunders]
i'm also against playlists
20:40:51 [gioele]
in theory I'd be against playlists as well, but now I have thought of it, I fail to see the difference between an internet release (list of titles, link to MP3, click to listen, right click to download) and an internet playlist with videos (list of titles, link to Video, click to listen, something more complicated to download)
20:42:58 [reosarevok]
It's pretty rare to have digital releases which are really like that anymore, I'd say - but even those usually have the *presentation* of a release
20:43:13 [reosarevok]
(have cover art, are considered when looking at a discography, etc)
20:44:38 [gioele]
reosarevok: the playlists in my post to the mailinglist all have something like "coverart"
20:45:58 [reosarevok]
The first has an article picture, which I suspect articles without videos have as well. The Spotify one also doesn't have any cover
20:46:30 [reosarevok]
http://evertainment.blogspot.it/2012/01/evertainment-weekly-playlist-dj.html is most definitely a release
20:46:36 [reosarevok]
It's also not a playlist, it's a DJ-mix
20:46:58 [reosarevok]
(or a broadcast, or whatever - it's an uniform thing, anyway)
20:47:25 [reosarevok]
Seems to be a radio show, listening to it - or it's digital equivalent
20:47:31 [reosarevok]
We even have guidelines for those already
20:47:40 [reosarevok]
er. Its. Sorry D:
20:48:22 [reosarevok]
Anyway
20:49:20 [reosarevok]
That still could go in as a release or a recording or whatever
20:50:14 [reosarevok]
http://quasi.rockit.it/2014/05/20/pesaro-wave-city-perche-li-si-e-da-altre-parti-no/ is a series if anything - although I don't think we're using series for lists like those at the moment so style approval would probably be needed to use them as arbitrary lists rather than real series
20:50:39 [reosarevok]
(the videos themselves of course can be added as standalone video recordings)
20:51:58 [gioele]
being the rational person I am, I am looking for a way to tell releases and playlists apart, I hope "it has a cover art" is not the litmus test to apply :)
20:52:58 [reosarevok]
Intentionality, probably
20:53:40 [reosarevok]
I don't know if there's a single clear border, I doubt it since there rarely is in MB stuff :p
20:53:47 [gioele]
:)
20:55:02 [gioele]
can we have series of series?
20:56:36 [gioele]
I think all these http://quasi.rockit.it/category/liste/ as a single series (the authors' intent is shown by the fact that they have a section for them). But if a playlist is a series, then we have a series of series
20:58:10 [reosarevok]
Well not at the moment. That's a trivial change though
20:59:14 [reosarevok]
I don't think I would agree either that that's a series, though - they're unconnected as such, just happen to be all the lists in the same page. That's a bit like saying all releases on a netlabel are a series.
20:59:24 [reosarevok]
(I would agree though you can have series of playlists)
21:00:06 [gioele]
reosarevok: yes, you are right, that is more a catalog than a series
21:00:09 [reosarevok]
(If they did that Pesaro thing for different cities, I'd call that a series - or if they have a weekly "we ask an artist to pick 10 songs for us")
21:01:20 [reosarevok]
About the limits, yeah, unsure
21:02:22 [reosarevok]
If a magazine asks an artist to select 10 songs that influenced them and print the names, that's obviously not a release. If they ask him and put them on a CD, that is a release. If they link to them in youtube... it is indeed a bit of a grey area :)
21:05:01 [gioele]
I think the difference between artist chooses 10 songs in an article and artist chooses 10 songs for a CD is that the first links to works, the second links to recordings, the third…
21:05:51 [gioele]
so MB does not care about "list of titles linked to works" but cares about "list of titles linked to recordings"
21:06:09 [gioele]
at list this is a decent test
21:06:53 [gioele]
s/list/least/
21:08:01 [gioele]
now, are lists of embedded videos links to works or recordings? I'd say the latter: these people spend time choosing a good video, or a version of song X made by artist Y
21:09:15 [reosarevok]
Heh
21:10:02 [reosarevok]
I don' tthink that's what MB cares about - it cares about the, well, release-ness of it :p
21:10:46 [reosarevok]
And about notability as well, up to a point - that CD would be allowed if it's done by an artist, but it'd probably be voted down if it's my wedding's playlist on a CD :p
21:11:00 [reosarevok]
* reosarevok is very much not getting married, but to put an example
21:11:48 [gioele]
well, I think the people behind these sites spend quite a bit of time to polish those posts, then the push them on social networks and all those things. Notable I do not know (quite a bit for rockit.it), but release-ness I'd say a lot (at least they try to look as people that do releases)
21:34:48 [CallerNo6]
is a radio dj notable? they're cranking out playlists faster than we could ever enter them.
21:35:18 [CallerNo6]
(maybe I simply don't get the playlist concept)
21:35:50 [gioele]
CallerNo6: some are, others are not :)
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